NY drivers license

[busterb]

What a bunch of shit!
Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said he was not happy that New York intended to issue IDs to illegal immigrants. But he said there was nothing he could do to stop it.
"I don't endorse giving licenses to people who are not here legally, but federal law does allow states to make that choice," Chertoff said.

Hello. Did you never hear of the DOT? Just stop all hiway funds and see what happens. As in the gas shortage back in 70s. If the states didn't enforce the 55 limit they lost funds.

[TheMercenary]

Come on now, you are talking about a state that let a woman from Arkansas move up there with absolutely no ties to the state what so ever and elected her senator. Come on....

[Perry Winkle]

I don't know the whole story here. Linky?

People are going to drive regardless of legality, especially when it comes to earning a living. So I say that it's better to issue drivers licenses to anyone who can pass the tests. It's better than having even more unlicensed/unlicensable drivers on the road.

Besides, it gives us a better idea of how many undocumented migrants there are in a given area.

[Aliantha]

Wouldn't an unlicenced driver affect whatever insurance is on the car too? For example, if an unlicenced driver has a crash, the insurance on the vehicle becomes null and void?

It's a bit of a grey area here, but basically, insurance comapanies aren't going to like it if an unlicenced driver in an old bomb smashed into a beemer.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

People are going to drive regardless of legality, especially when it comes to earning a living. So I say that it's better to issue drivers licenses to anyone who can pass the tests. It's better than having even more unlicensed/unlicensable drivers on the road.

Why? Why is it better?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

It's better than having even more unlicensed/unlicensable drivers on the road.

That doesn't even make any sense. It's not like the illegal immigrants will be taking driver's ed now. Either they can drive well enough to pass the test, or they can't. Either way, they're already on the road, and will continue to be on the road after the fact, licensed or not.

This is not about driving. It's about getting a traceable ID on these people.

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

Besides, it gives us a better idea of how many undocumented migrants there are in a given area.

Not quite--it gives them a better idea of where to find the undocumented immigrants when they want to.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

It's not like the illegal immigrants will be taking driver's ed now.

Driver's ed is irrelevant to driver skill. (i.e., I don't believe there is a statistically significant causative correlation between driver's ed and driver's skill.) Technical skills, situational awareness, attention and conscientious driving aren't the sole domain of a class. Actually, I would argue that driver's ed is virtually worthless for all but the most tentative drivers.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Either they can drive well enough to pass the test, or they can't. Either way, they're already on the road, and will continue to be on the road after the fact, licensed or not.

True. Complete, absolute truth. But we're pretty silly if we don't provide incentives to achieve a certain level of competence. As the situation is now, there are only penalties if they make their presence officially known to the Government.

If they can get licensed, without putting their jobs in jeopardy, for whatever small fee the DMV charges, and avoid the fines and legal problems that will prevent them from supporting their families, they're going to do it. I would imagine many of these undocumented workers will take that little extra effort to become familiar with all of the rules of the road in order to be official. (I believe economists and gamblers would call this is a positive EV proposition.)

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

That doesn't even make any sense.
...
This is not about driving. It's about getting a traceable ID on these people.

I meant to acknowledge this in my previous post, but it was late, late, late and I was tired. It does give the Government a much better idea about where to find them, but these people will still disappear after being licensed, if they don't want to be found.

Additionally, it gives us statistics on how much of a problem having these people driving and living in our country is. What happens if this population turns out to be exemplary citizens of the road? Anything that helps tame the xenophobia many Americans feel about migrants is a good thing to me.

Very few things in this world are what they are claimed to be about.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Not quite--it gives them a better idea of where to find the undocumented immigrants when they want to.

Which is a rephrasing exactly what I said but explicitly stating that the Government occasionally wants to find certain of these people, for whatever reason. It could also be used to build skill profiles of them and sell those on to the people who hire undocumented migrants on a by-area basis.

(The following bit isn't directed at anyone. Just a rant.)
These people are here, and they aren't going away. Many businesses would flounder without these people, so the government isn't likely to start deporting people wholesale, unless they want to kick the economy in the soft and furries.

The US has one of the lowest (if not lowest) unemployment rates in the entire world. Discounting the disabled, if that last few percent of the people were motivated and wanted work, they'd have it.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Wouldn't an unlicenced driver affect whatever insurance is on the car too? For example, if an unlicenced driver has a crash, the insurance on the vehicle becomes null and void?

Right. Imagine you're a businessman that runs a lawn service firm. You can't get the labor you need, so you pick up undocumented migrants for less pay than the citizens you can't find to work for you.

If you're dumb or in dire need, you let these unlicensed drivers operate your equipment (e.g. driving a truck to a job-site). You eat the costs of any accident: equipment replacement, increased insurance costs, et cetera.

If these people could be licensed then any accident is covered by insurance, and your income goes up because you aren't losing so much money to equipment replacement (you might lose time and jobs, too, because you can't afford to replace all of the equipment). This extra revenue is then taxed by the government, and the rest of the community benefits (or wherever the taxes go).

[monster]

If they're here illegally, why aren't they clapped in irons and sent back from whence they came the minute they turn up at the Secretary of State's office? Or dealt with and made legal, then given a DL?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

Right. Imagine you're a businessman that runs a lawn service firm. You can't get the labor you need, so you pick up undocumented migrants for less pay than the citizens you can't find to work for you.

If you're dumb or in dire need, you let these unlicensed drivers operate your equipment (e.g. driving a truck to a job-site). You eat the costs of any accident: equipment replacement, increased insurance costs, et cetera.

If these people could be licensed then any accident is covered by insurance, and your income goes up because you aren't losing so much money to equipment replacement (you might lose time and jobs, too, because you can't afford to replace all of the equipment). This extra revenue is then taxed by the government, and the rest of the community benefits (or wherever the taxes go).

To many false assumptions. This is the list of false assumptions:
1. You let these unlicensed drivers operate your equipment and they have accidents that affect your bottom line of profit. There is no evidence to support that notion, or that there is a rash of such situations that this is the norm.
2. If these people could be licensed then any accident is covered by insurance, and your income goes up because you aren't losing so much money to equipment replacement Part of the reason this is false is contained in #1. There is no evidence to support the notion that by giving a license to undocumented workers is going to ensure that employers are going to suddenly cover them for insurance and let them drive more. There is no evidence to support the notion that employers are losing money due to undocumented workers wrecking equipment or destroying any equipment that would need to be replaced and that such actions are costing employers huge amounts of money.
3. This extra revenue is then taxed by the government, and the rest of the community benefits (or wherever the taxes go). There is no evidence to support that because undocumented workers get a drivers license that their pay will suddenly become taxed or that any such revenue would be realized by the public.

So basically everything you stated as an example is total bullshit.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Driving is not a right, it is a privelege... if you don't believe that, just ask the state, any state.

So now privileges are granted to criminals, in NY.

[Perry Winkle]

My phrasing wasn't the best. I wasn't trying to imply any universality in the mechanics of my examples. That's kind of why we call them examples. They are anecdotes, thought experiments, etc. I meant my examples to be read as loose analogies, not as a strict exemplar.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

To many false assumptions. This is the list of false assumptions:
1. You let these unlicensed drivers operate your equipment and they have accidents that affect your bottom line of profit. There is no evidence to support that notion, or that there is a rash of such situations that this is the norm.
2. If these people could be licensed then any accident is covered by insurance, and your income goes up because you aren't losing so much money to equipment replacement Part of the reason this is false is contained in #1. There is no evidence to support the notion that by giving a license to undocumented workers is going to ensure that employers are going to suddenly cover them for insurance and let them drive more. There is no evidence to support the notion that employers are losing money due to undocumented workers wrecking equipment or destroying any equipment that would need to be replaced and that such actions are costing employers huge amounts of money.

Actually, that's one "false" assumption, i.e., I assumed that if you employ certified people then your insurance will cover them. I'm sure it's true to some degree. The reasoning of my examples is valid if this holds. Uninsured losses affect a company's bottom line.

I never made any statements about the frequency or magnitude of losses due to damage by unlicensed, undocumented migrants. I believe we can safely assume that both are significantly non-zero.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

3. This extra revenue is then taxed by the government, and the rest of the community benefits (or wherever the taxes go). There is no evidence to support that because undocumented workers get a drivers license that their pay will suddenly become taxed or that any such revenue would be realized by the public.

I never said that the pay of undocumented migrants would be taxed. I said that the companies that are realizing the profit from their work would be taxed. I also never said that the public would necessarily reap any benefit from this tax revenue.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

So basically everything you stated as an example is total bullshit.

Yeah, and so is 90% of everything else that everyone says.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by monster

Or dealt with and made legal, then given a DL?

That would be easy if we relaxed immigration restrictions. Many well-respected economists and policy authorities think this is the best solution. Our government rarely does what experts deem reasonable, though; they appease the masses and forsake rationality.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

So now privileges are granted to criminals, in NY.

If it's a net positive, why not?

Where are the arguments for this being a negative? (I'm actually curious, not just being a smart-ass. I'm sort of disconnected from what's happening in the US right now. . . I'll be happy to go retrace my steps and find the links that helped me formulate my opinions, if anyone is interested.)

[busterb]

Some folks just don't get the, maybe fact, that a drivers license is the key to getting other things. Hey years ago to get a license I had to show a birth certificate. So what do they have to show? If they show that their not legal, send their ass home. IMHO.