Red vs Blue

Griff · 11-14-2003, 08:05 AM

"My" union sent me a propaganda sheet making sure that I would know who the candidates from the approved party are. On the next page is a reprint of the old red v blue electoral map which shows how divided the people who vote in this country are. It has always been thus. Politicized Americans have been screaming and fighting about this stuff from day one.

Is there anything different now? Yes, in the past the role of government in the individual lives of citizens was limited. The stakes are much larger now. As warch said on a thread a while back, "everything is political." That bothers me a lot. What that means to me is that nothing is personal. There is no aspect of our lives that somebody doesn't have a political agenda about. From our birthing choices to disposal of our corpse somebody has an agenda for us. That is why our politics seem more shrill. The people of this country are clanning up, with good reason, their values both left and right, if you believe in that tripe, are under assault because whoever wins the election is expected to destroy the other guys agenda and assert his own. We now understand that both old parties know no spending, moral, or political limitation when it comes to foisting their agenda on the rest of the country. I would urge you political types not to assume the country is with the tiny minority of citizens who elect the next oppressor-in-chief.

Vote different.

SteveDallas · 11-14-2003, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff

Vote different.

Please explain how we're supposed to accomplish this. I'm under the assumption that we will once again be presented with 2 bad choices by the two major parties. Yes, I know we can vote for candidates from other parties, but I don't see how that helps either.

Undertoad · 11-14-2003, 08:49 AM

Here's another look at red vs blue

via Andrew Sullivan

russotto · 11-14-2003, 08:54 AM

If you really want to affect an election, I suggest getting a job at Diebold, which makes electronic voting machines.

Undertoad · 11-14-2003, 09:00 AM

And I don't agree with your main theme, G.

I don't think warch's "everything is political" means exactly what you think it does. It just means that people consider the political aspects of everything, not that politics truly controls everything.

For the most part, politicians try to SAY they are in control of everything, but very little actually changes.

See the partial-birth abortion ban, for example. Both sides believe it is the end of the fucking world either way and the argument is so shrill that neither side needs megaphones. But at the same time, both sides agree that it really only affects maybe less than a thousand people. Incredible amounts of fury, very little change.

If things are political, it doesn't mean that the government controls more things. Look at the weed thread for example. It's against the law with harsh punishments and shrill arguments and Tommy Chong in federal prison, etc. And yet, those who decide to do it, do it ANYWAY and speak freely about it on public message boards. This is a strange kind of control. We certainly don't FEEL controlled.

Griff · 11-14-2003, 10:00 AM

The drug example is a good one. Despite most(?) people supporting decriminalization, we are all taxed to continue the futility. Knowing they can't get everyone who smokes, they prosecute selectively or should I say politicly. Lets face it, suburban white people (not to profile the cellar) are not generally the target and when they are picked up they walk. I don't like living in a society where law doesn't reflect norms. Selective prosecution is an interesting thing. The woman who ran the wildlife rescue here was recently arrested on some bull crap licensing thing because she's been taking care of an owl. She probably stepped on some jerks toes at the Humane Society and since we are a country of bottomless law, they found a way to shut her down. It doesn't matter how much good she did over the years, she p.o.ed somebody and now she's done.

"It just means that people consider the political aspects of everything, not that politics truly controls everything."

It's not that politics controls everything. It's the assumption by Dems and Reps that it could or should. They make laws to please their voters but smokers keep smokin and doctors keep abortin until someone crosses somebody and the thoroughly random arm of the law is applied. El Spode peeing in the cup is a form of control. Your place do any gov contacts El? Left wing professors who hold the keys to government certification trying to drive conservatives out of education is a form of control. A decent woman getting picked up by the State Police for nursing injured animals is certainly a form of control.

SD, if I knew the answer to that I wouldn't have been so vague. Vote with your feet move to NH with the Free Staters if thats your bag? That doesn't change the map much...

Undertoad · 11-14-2003, 10:23 AM

And yet, yesterday the Ninth Circuit said that the Federal Government cannot use the interstate commerce clause to prohibit the building of homemade machine guns.

I bet, if you took a poll, you would find that people would want the prohibition of homemade machine guns at rates of about 97-3.

There's a lot of crap out there, but it's the big picture that counts IMO. I think the big picture is getting better in many ways.

Radar · 11-14-2003, 10:25 AM

Luckily it wouldn't matter if every single person in America voted that I couldn't build homemade machine guns. I'd still be able to do it because it is my unalienable birthright and the government (even with a supermajority) has no authority to tell me I can't build them.

russotto · 11-14-2003, 03:54 PM

PA isn't in Ninth Circuit jurisdiction, or I'd be considering finding some plans and some way of renting time on a CNC milling machine.

SteveDallas · 11-14-2003, 05:09 PM

Wow, that's a fascinating map--especially the way the colors change when you "zoom" in or out.

xoxoxoBruce · 11-14-2003, 11:43 PM

Quote:

See the partial-birth abortion ban, for example. Both sides believe it is the end of the fucking world either way and the argument is so shrill that neither side needs megaphones. But at the same time, both sides agree that it really only affects maybe less than a thousand people. Incredible amounts of fury, very little change.

Isn't there a method to the madness? Pick hotbutton issues that really affects very few. That way if you lose there are not many that will remember you lost because once it's out of the headlines only the affected will remember.

The map? Thank god the Atlantic and the Gulf still go Democratic.

Undertoad · 11-15-2003, 08:01 AM

Yeah, I think the big reason they do what they do is fund-raising. Both sides can now go back to the faithful and point to partial-birth abortion. Both sides can say they are fighting the good fight against true evil, and their followers will open their checkbooks wide to keep on fighting that fight, and both sides will get reelected and nothing will really change.

slang · 11-19-2003, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff
.....since we are a country of bottomless law, they found a way to shut her down.

Thats the first time I've seen it put that way Griff. Perfectly worded.

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
I think the big picture is getting better in many ways..

By the recent Supreme Court decisions or which?

Quote:

Originally posted by Radar
.....has no authority to tell me I can't build them.

The reality is, being right and dead or being right and in prison is the same as not having the "right". We're on the same page, I'm still waiting for something viable to get us back to where we both really want to be.

Quote:

Originally posted by russotto
....way of renting time on a CNC milling machine.

Or you could just buy a machinegun, if you're in Pa. and meet the requirements. They are still legal here.

warch · 11-21-2003, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Yes, in the past the role of government in the individual lives of citizens was limited. The stakes are much larger now. As warch said on a thread a while back, "everything is political." That bothers me a lot. What that means to me is that nothing is personal.

No, I dont think so. Some things will always be very personal issues and concerns, but that realization and those concerns create a political agenda. Its the negotiating of the power, which starts with one's personal politics. There were intrusive, unjust, rampant abuses of power, both public and private power, in the good old days too. Starting circa 1963 in the US, I think people have become more aware of their ability to personally influence governmental power. That awareness has led to the current frustrations and hopes.

xoxoxoBruce · 11-23-2003, 12:20 AM

I agree awareness has led to the current frustrations and hopes. But I always thought 1963 was when people started to discover how *small* their ability to personally influence governmental power is. That the gumint is out of the control of the people.

11-14-2003, 08:05 AM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Red vs Blue "My" union sent me a propaganda sheet making sure that I would know who the candidates from the approved party are. On the next page is a reprint of the old red v blue electoral map which shows how divided the people who vote in this country are. It has always been thus. Politicized Americans have been screaming and fighting about this stuff from day one. Is there anything different now? Yes, in the past the role of government in the individual lives of citizens was limited. The stakes are much larger now. As warch said on a thread a while back, "everything is political." That bothers me a lot. What that means to me is that nothing is personal. There is no aspect of our lives that somebody doesn't have a political agenda about. From our birthing choices to disposal of our corpse somebody has an agenda for us. That is why our politics seem more shrill. The people of this country are clanning up, with good reason, their values both left and right, if you believe in that tripe, are under assault because whoever wins the election is expected to destroy the other guys agenda and assert his own. We now understand that both old parties know no spending, moral, or political limitation when it comes to foisting their agenda on the rest of the country. I would urge you political types not to assume the country is with the tiny minority of citizens who elect the next oppressor-in-chief. Vote different. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

11-14-2003, 08:54 AM	#4
russotto Professor Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 1,788	Re: Re: Red vs Blue If you really want to affect an election, I suggest getting a job at Diebold, which makes electronic voting machines.

11-14-2003, 10:00 AM	#6
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	The drug example is a good one. Despite most(?) people supporting decriminalization, we are all taxed to continue the futility. Knowing they can't get everyone who smokes, they prosecute selectively or should I say politicly. Lets face it, suburban white people (not to profile the cellar) are not generally the target and when they are picked up they walk. I don't like living in a society where law doesn't reflect norms. Selective prosecution is an interesting thing. The woman who ran the wildlife rescue here was recently arrested on some bull crap licensing thing because she's been taking care of an owl. She probably stepped on some jerks toes at the Humane Society and since we are a country of bottomless law, they found a way to shut her down. It doesn't matter how much good she did over the years, she p.o.ed somebody and now she's done. "It just means that people consider the political aspects of everything, not that politics truly controls everything." It's not that politics controls everything. It's the assumption by Dems and Reps that it could or should. They make laws to please their voters but smokers keep smokin and doctors keep abortin until someone crosses somebody and the thoroughly random arm of the law is applied. El Spode peeing in the cup is a form of control. Your place do any gov contacts El? Left wing professors who hold the keys to government certification trying to drive conservatives out of education is a form of control. A decent woman getting picked up by the State Police for nursing injured animals is certainly a form of control. SD, if I knew the answer to that I wouldn't have been so vague. Vote with your feet move to NH with the Free Staters if thats your bag? That doesn't change the map much... __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

11-14-2003, 10:25 AM	#8
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Luckily it wouldn't matter if every single person in America voted that I couldn't build homemade machine guns. I'd still be able to do it because it is my unalienable birthright and the government (even with a supermajority) has no authority to tell me I can't build them. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

11-23-2003, 12:20 AM	#15
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I agree awareness has led to the current frustrations and hopes. But I always thought 1963 was when people started to discover how small their ability to personally influence governmental power is. That the gumint is out of the control of the people. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

11-14-2003, 08:49 AM	#3
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Here's another look at red vs blue via Andrew Sullivan

11-14-2003, 09:00 AM	#5
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	And I don't agree with your main theme, G. I don't think warch's "everything is political" means exactly what you think it does. It just means that people consider the political aspects of everything, not that politics truly controls everything. For the most part, politicians try to SAY they are in control of everything, but very little actually changes. See the partial-birth abortion ban, for example. Both sides believe it is the end of the fucking world either way and the argument is so shrill that neither side needs megaphones. But at the same time, both sides agree that it really only affects maybe less than a thousand people. Incredible amounts of fury, very little change. If things are political, it doesn't mean that the government controls more things. Look at the weed thread for example. It's against the law with harsh punishments and shrill arguments and Tommy Chong in federal prison, etc. And yet, those who decide to do it, do it ANYWAY and speak freely about it on public message boards. This is a strange kind of control. We certainly don't FEEL controlled.

11-14-2003, 10:23 AM	#7
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	And yet, yesterday the Ninth Circuit said that the Federal Government cannot use the interstate commerce clause to prohibit the building of homemade machine guns. I bet, if you took a poll, you would find that people would want the prohibition of homemade machine guns at rates of about 97-3. There's a lot of crap out there, but it's the big picture that counts IMO. I think the big picture is getting better in many ways.

11-14-2003, 03:54 PM	#9
russotto Professor Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 1,788	PA isn't in Ninth Circuit jurisdiction, or I'd be considering finding some plans and some way of renting time on a CNC milling machine.

11-14-2003, 05:09 PM	#10
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	Wow, that's a fascinating map--especially the way the colors change when you "zoom" in or out.

11-15-2003, 08:01 AM	#12
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Yeah, I think the big reason they do what they do is fund-raising. Both sides can now go back to the faithful and point to partial-birth abortion. Both sides can say they are fighting the good fight against true evil, and their followers will open their checkbooks wide to keep on fighting that fight, and both sides will get reelected and nothing will really change.

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