Dissonance

07-13-2004, 11:40 AM

Here's something I've been wondering about (I have too much unwanted free time on my hands, I know). It seems to me that people who identify with the conservative end of the political spectrum claim great patriotism and love for their country while at the same time evincing a great dislike of a sizable number of their fellow Americans - like we shouldn't have social service programs because everybody will just jump on board the government "gravy train" and never do a lick of work again. Or they say, "Let's get tough on crime and throw everybody in jail and execute 'em all."

On the other hand, people who gravitate toward the other end of the political spectrum seem to be pretty free in their criticisms of the country, but more concerned about the well-being of its individual citizens. Like we should have better governmental security nets for the old folks or people who get sick or who need help because they're had a run of misfortunes in their lives.

How can you love your country and dislike its people? If this is a government by the people and you love that concept, how can you at the same time be so suspicious of your fellow countrymen? By that logic, wouldn't you as a conservative, have to hate your country, as well? If you as a liberal dislike your government, how can you feel that it will do a good job helping our people? I don't want to get in some big debate about welfare, we've done that already. What I'm curious about is the dissonance going on in both groups. Do you see this too? And if so, why do you think it's possible for people to hold such contradictory ideas in their head without even being troubled by it? (I am really glad Radar no longer reads my posts on this one!)

Cyber Wolf · 07-13-2004, 12:37 PM

Part of it is that's how humans are. You find that anywhere there's two ends of a situation to be on.

And that leads to another, probably bigger, part: the fact that there's a perpetuated selection of two choices: conservative/liberal. Whenever you take a situation and give aspects of it labels with specific definitions, you'll have people splitting into camps. Us vs Them. Hatfield vs McCoy. East Coast vs West Coast. And part of being in one camp or another is that you're not LIKE the other people. And to prove it (to yourself or to your campmates or to the world), you have to not be like the other campers. The more you show you aren't like them and the more you show you don't like what they do, the more you prove you match whatever camp you've aligned yourself with. Besides, if you're trying to do X, Y and Z and the other camp keeps doing things that disrupts or overturns your efforts, you're bound to get a little pissed off after a while. Never liked political labels meself.

The final part is that so many issues that people tend to deeply divide themselves about have a tendency to get personal on some level. How personal it gets depends on the individual and the issue. Abortion, for example. One lady from camp X firmly believes the fetus is a living human from conception and another lady from camp Y believes that since its feeding off the woman's nutrient supply she should at least have the choice to have it removed. Camp X lady wants to save a life, Camp Y lady wants to save her choice. To Camp X lady, Camp Y lady wants the choice to commit murder legally. Flip it around, Camp X lady appears to want to relinquish all American womens' control over their own body, without their consent. And from that point, you get them calling each other murderer, fascist and other lovely things...

07-13-2004, 01:10 PM

I know exactly what you mean, Cyber. It's so easy for people to place themselves by knee jerk reflex into "them" versus "us" camps. What I'm asking about is the ability to hold such paradoxial views as the ones I pointed out above in your own mind at the same time, and think nothing of it.

jaguar · 07-13-2004, 01:34 PM

I could be wrong here but it seems to me there is a fair percentage of the US population who barrak for political parties like football teams, very strange, quite destructive.

Troubleshooter · 07-13-2004, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

I could be wrong here but it seems to me there is a fair percentage of the US population who barrak for political parties like football teams, very strange, quite destructive.

Huh?

glatt · 07-13-2004, 02:02 PM

I had to break out the dictionary. "Barrack" is an Australian saying which means "to shout support for a team."

Interesting that it is also a British saying "to jeer or shout at a player, speaker or team."

So the Brits and Ozzies us the word to mean exactly the opposite of the other.

Never heard that one before.

lumberjim · 07-13-2004, 02:02 PM

People do that with everything. brand loyalty for chrissakes! i don't drink pepsi, I like COKE! mcDonalds, not Burger King! we have ford pickup truck drivers with little stickers on their back windows that have a kid peeing on a chevy logo.

jaguar · 07-13-2004, 02:03 PM

Really? I thought it was a common word...

Clodfobble · 07-13-2004, 02:32 PM

In America "barracks" are where the soldiers sleep.

But that aside, I thought your meaning was clear, and I agree. There's a lot of similarity between politics and sports fandom.

Troubleshooter · 07-13-2004, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

In America "barracks" are where the soldiers sleep.

But that aside, I thought your meaning was clear, and I agree. There's a lot of similarity between politics and sports fandom.

Definitely not much difference in the customer base...

lumberjim · 07-13-2004, 02:55 PM

people want their own choices ratified. that's why some people are big referrers. ever meet someone who told you about every great deal they got, or practically insist that you try their barber/insurance guy/mortgage broker, etc...? They want to see you confirm their choice by making the same one. Pepole want you to believe what they believe. very elemental human nature. "you should worship MY god, it's the only right one." ..... "Oh, you're a democrat? you know there's lots of bad stuff about them....you really should be republican." "I'm going to jump off this cliff. You really should too"

dar512 · 07-13-2004, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

people want their own choices ratified. that's why some people are big referrers. ever meet someone who told you about every great deal they got, or practically insist that you try their barber/insurance guy/mortgage broker, etc...? They want to see you confirm their choice by making the same one. Pepole want you to believe what they believe. very elemental human nature. "you should worship MY god, it's the only right one." ..... "Oh, you're a democrat? you know there's lots of bad stuff about them....you really should be republican." "I'm going to jump off this cliff. You really should too"

Match that up with the conflicting need to feel different and special and you've probably wrapped up most of psychology.

hot_pastrami · 07-13-2004, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marichiko

How can you love your country and dislike its people?

Just because two things or ideas are inextricably linked does not mean that you must have the same opinion of both things, even if they are just separate qualities of the same concept. For instance, I can love Wal-Mart's low prices and product selection, but loathe the company itself. There is a logical separation of ideas there, and one is not dependent on the other, so they're not really contradictory. What I mean is, the things that cause me to dislike Wal-Mart are things other than the prices and product selection... such as their business practices and smothering growth.

The same logical separation allows us to support our soldiers, while still condemning the war in Iraq. The soldiers are not the war, they're just one high-profile aspect. The citizens are not the nation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marichiko

It seems to me that people who identify with the conservative end of the political spectrum claim great patriotism and love for their country while at the same time evincing a great dislike of a sizable number of their fellow Americans - like we shouldn't have social service programs because everybody will just jump on board the government "gravy train" and never do a lick of work again. Or they say, "Let's get tough on crime and throw everybody in jail and execute 'em all."

Extreme conservatives like the ones you describe usually love their country and rich people. That's why they dislike social service programs and the like, but they still love their country.

Happy Monkey · 07-13-2004, 03:54 PM

Foreign policy is run by politicians and government aid programs are run by civil servants. My opinion of civil servants is higher than my opinion of politicians.

jaguar · 07-13-2004, 04:06 PM

A barracks is the same in australia but you barrack for a team, which is when you say 'Carn the $team!', usually very loudly after a few. Just to confuse things further

That's usually followed by something like 'COME ON WARNEY YOU FAT TUB OF LARD', we love our sportpeople. I'm crossing my sports there though.

07-13-2004, 11:40 AM	#1
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	Dissonance Here's something I've been wondering about (I have too much unwanted free time on my hands, I know). It seems to me that people who identify with the conservative end of the political spectrum claim great patriotism and love for their country while at the same time evincing a great dislike of a sizable number of their fellow Americans - like we shouldn't have social service programs because everybody will just jump on board the government "gravy train" and never do a lick of work again. Or they say, "Let's get tough on crime and throw everybody in jail and execute 'em all." On the other hand, people who gravitate toward the other end of the political spectrum seem to be pretty free in their criticisms of the country, but more concerned about the well-being of its individual citizens. Like we should have better governmental security nets for the old folks or people who get sick or who need help because they're had a run of misfortunes in their lives. How can you love your country and dislike its people? If this is a government by the people and you love that concept, how can you at the same time be so suspicious of your fellow countrymen? By that logic, wouldn't you as a conservative, have to hate your country, as well? If you as a liberal dislike your government, how can you feel that it will do a good job helping our people? I don't want to get in some big debate about welfare, we've done that already. What I'm curious about is the dissonance going on in both groups. Do you see this too? And if so, why do you think it's possible for people to hold such contradictory ideas in their head without even being troubled by it? (I am really glad Radar no longer reads my posts on this one!)

07-13-2004, 12:37 PM	#2
Cyber Wolf As stable as a ring of PU-239 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: On a huge rock covered in water, highly advanced moss and 7 billion parasites Posts: 1,264	Part of it is that's how humans are. You find that anywhere there's two ends of a situation to be on. And that leads to another, probably bigger, part: the fact that there's a perpetuated selection of two choices: conservative/liberal. Whenever you take a situation and give aspects of it labels with specific definitions, you'll have people splitting into camps. Us vs Them. Hatfield vs McCoy. East Coast vs West Coast. And part of being in one camp or another is that you're not LIKE the other people. And to prove it (to yourself or to your campmates or to the world), you have to not be like the other campers. The more you show you aren't like them and the more you show you don't like what they do, the more you prove you match whatever camp you've aligned yourself with. Besides, if you're trying to do X, Y and Z and the other camp keeps doing things that disrupts or overturns your efforts, you're bound to get a little pissed off after a while. Never liked political labels meself. The final part is that so many issues that people tend to deeply divide themselves about have a tendency to get personal on some level. How personal it gets depends on the individual and the issue. Abortion, for example. One lady from camp X firmly believes the fetus is a living human from conception and another lady from camp Y believes that since its feeding off the woman's nutrient supply she should at least have the choice to have it removed. Camp X lady wants to save a life, Camp Y lady wants to save her choice. To Camp X lady, Camp Y lady wants the choice to commit murder legally. Flip it around, Camp X lady appears to want to relinquish all American womens' control over their own body, without their consent. And from that point, you get them calling each other murderer, fascist and other lovely things... __________________ "I don't see what's so triffic about creating people as people and then getting' upset 'cos they act like people." ~Adam Young, Good Omens "I don't see why it matters what is written. Not when it's about people. It can always be crossed out." ~Adam Young, Good Omens

07-13-2004, 01:34 PM	#4
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I could be wrong here but it seems to me there is a fair percentage of the US population who barrak for political parties like football teams, very strange, quite destructive. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-13-2004, 02:02 PM	#7
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	People do that with everything. brand loyalty for chrissakes! i don't drink pepsi, I like COKE! mcDonalds, not Burger King! we have ford pickup truck drivers with little stickers on their back windows that have a kid peeing on a chevy logo. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

07-13-2004, 02:03 PM	#8
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Really? I thought it was a common word... __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-13-2004, 01:10 PM	#3
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	I know exactly what you mean, Cyber. It's so easy for people to place themselves by knee jerk reflex into "them" versus "us" camps. What I'm asking about is the ability to hold such paradoxial views as the ones I pointed out above in your own mind at the same time, and think nothing of it.

07-13-2004, 02:02 PM	#6
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	I had to break out the dictionary. "Barrack" is an Australian saying which means "to shout support for a team." Interesting that it is also a British saying "to jeer or shout at a player, speaker or team." So the Brits and Ozzies us the word to mean exactly the opposite of the other. Never heard that one before.

07-13-2004, 02:32 PM	#9
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	In America "barracks" are where the soldiers sleep. But that aside, I thought your meaning was clear, and I agree. There's a lot of similarity between politics and sports fandom.

07-13-2004, 02:55 PM	#11
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	people want their own choices ratified. that's why some people are big referrers. ever meet someone who told you about every great deal they got, or practically insist that you try their barber/insurance guy/mortgage broker, etc...? They want to see you confirm their choice by making the same one. Pepole want you to believe what they believe. very elemental human nature. "you should worship MY god, it's the only right one." ..... "Oh, you're a democrat? you know there's lots of bad stuff about them....you really should be republican." "I'm going to jump off this cliff. You really should too" __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

07-13-2004, 03:54 PM	#14
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	Foreign policy is run by politicians and government aid programs are run by civil servants. My opinion of civil servants is higher than my opinion of politicians. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-13-2004, 04:06 PM	#15
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	A barracks is the same in australia but you barrack for a team, which is when you say 'Carn the $team!', usually very loudly after a few. Just to confuse things further That's usually followed by something like 'COME ON WARNEY YOU FAT TUB OF LARD', we love our sportpeople. I'm crossing my sports there though. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

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