9 posts down page 3

[tw]

Originally posted by jaguar in "A National ID card"
Ok look, this is a waste of item unless you define its purpose.
What EXACTLY would a national ID be used for. Where would it have to be shown?

I had already answered this question weeks previous by example. This previous example was provided. Financial instruments: in ancient history, I could even buy groceries by cashing a check. If short on cash at the Howard Johnson's Restaurant, I could write a check. No problem when paper was a reliable form of ID verification. After all it was the 20th Century. Now even a company payroll check is no longer acceptable at grocery stores nor can be even cashed at a bank until the check clears your account. Freedoms and liberties stolen by ID theifs.

That is not just personal checks. Payroll check once had the integrity of cash. Today, identify fraud is so common, even a payroll check cannot be cashed. That alone is a major reason for reliable identity verification. How many more financial actions once deemed common will be taken away simply because we can no longer prove who we are. Without an ID verification system, the liberties once provided by checks and other financial instruments will be taken away.

Financial integrity and other credit worthiness: what other form of ID is reliable for identification verification? No, not even a driver's license is nor was intended for such purpose. Driver's licenses are used only because no ID verfication system exists.

Currently anyone can get a driver's license, take out a loan, obtain credit cards, and use my credit rating to steal. No matter that I did not do the crime. I am still victimized by those who were denied the ability to verify I am who I said. Someone steals from them so I am victimized instead. IOW my credit rating is permanently destroyed because others would denied me the ability to protect my identity. Others instead protected criminal activity by denying any ID verification and protection system to honest Americans. I am denied to ability to tell these agencies that my good name can only be used with ID verification. Am I to be denied tools to protect myself because others fear a system they will not even use?

Account protecton: I request my bank to put ID verification requirements on all my accounts. Currently a Commerce Bank in Siklerville NJ has numerous accounts compromised by others claiming to be the account holder. More identity theft because honest account holders cannot put protection on their accounts.

If you don't want ID verification and protection, then don't participate. Instruct your bank to perform business as usual with anyone who claims to be you. But to stifle an ID verification denies me the security we require on our accounts. Opponents of a National ID would encourage all personal information to be made available to criminals. Fine for them. They need not participate if they choose. But they are simply being intolerant - to deny us the ability to protect personal information - because of unfounded fears and a believe that current paper systems will always work just fine.

IRS information protection: my tax information is available to anyone who steals my identity. Only required is a phoney driver's license. I want the option of putting a flag on my tax information - only accessed when ID verificaton is performed. You can leave your tax information open to any ID theif. That is your right. Exercise it. But damn if you have the right to deny me personal ID protection. Just another purpose to an ID verification and protection system.

Credit theft: no credit card may be taken out in my name without ID verification. Quite simple. If anyone attempts to obtain credit in my good name, the credit agency denies access because the ID system says tw demands all credit cards, bank loans, etc taken out in my name be subjected to ID verification. Again, if you don't want that option, then don't apply. When you apply for credit cards, then no system demands you prove yourself beyond current, insecure, paper ID systems.

All commerical, legal, and financial protection - the good offense against your enemies and criminals: furthermore I want to detect when someone has attempted to use my good name to steal from others. Again, you can choose not to use such as system. But you don't have the right to deny me the ability to protect my identification simply because you fear.

Legal protection: I have protection in that any attempt to steal my identity in a crime in Oregon simply results in more caution by Oregon cops - who discover that I demand my good name be verified - by a National ID system. If cops think they arrest tw, and cops inquire about tw on a National ID system, then 1) they discover I want them to demand proper ID and 2) I am notified that a tw in Oregon accessed the system in my name. ID verification and ID protection. More important, I can notify Oregon that someone is stealing my identification to subvert Oregon law and to destroy my good name. I require that protection. Currently others who fear government more than criminals would deny me any such protection simply due to fear of change.

Are those enough examples of where an ID verification and protection system would be used?

Welcome to the 21st Century where one need not rob a bank or steal my car. Easier and financially more profitable instead to victimize me by proving they are me. Not just claim but prove because currently we only have identification that is routinely counterfeit and which provides ZERO protection for the ID theft victim. Are we so naive as to believe the current paper ID systems still work? Are we so naive to believe that systems not intended to verify ID will both verify and protection that identity?

Those who fear change would deny me protection from the most productive of crimes. How intolerant of them. Above are just some current examples of ID thefts.

What is it used for? With electronic identification and transactions only in their infancy, how many thousands more ways will be discovered to steal from honest people. ID theft is not even a crime in most states. ID protection does not exist. ID verification in the 20th Century will be considered non-existent compared to protection required by the electronic 21st Century.

In the 20th Century, if your name was on a check, then that paper was proof enough that it was you. Good enough in a society only based upon paper. Welcome to the 21st Century where someone in China or in space can transact anywhere using your good name because Identification is electrons; paper is obsolete and so easily counterfeit. Will we use ID systems in the 21st century only based upon paper? Yes according to the myopic who fear any stinking ID verification and protection system. The fear of an ID system if as unfounded as a belief in a paper ID verification and protection system.

Why do they believe we have any verfication system? IOW the question for jaguar is what will work for ID verification and protection in the 21st Century? Does jaguar believe that our paper ID system will always be sufficient? Provided are just some examples of why ID verification, never required in the past, will be important even to protect Americans from criminal Nigerians. Does jaguar still believe our (non-existent) ID system will be sufficient in 2010? Why? Even HP Deskjets have made current ID verification systems obsolete. What does jaguar propose to use now that no secure ID verification and protection system exists? Currently even a face is no longer valid for commercial indentification.

[jaguar]

Well, thankyou for answering one point in about 50 after two weeks. Pity it wasen't the answer i was looking for. What i was looking for was any documental evidence that this was in fact the primary purpose of the National ID system and that it WOU be volantary.

As for the issue of identity control in a digital world - ill finish this in a coupel of hours.

[Griff]

We need a national ID so we can roll the information into this...

http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2001/...X058CU6VC.html

[russotto]

Originally posted by Griff
We need a national ID so we can roll the information into this...

http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2001/...X058CU6VC.html

OK, is there anyone here (besides tw) who DOESN'T see that as Orwellian? Anyone? Buehler?

[warch]

Just put on the Mutual of Omaha Wild Kingdom radio collar. Eeekk. or the ear tag.

[Bitman]

If you need 2 pages to make a few simple points, then you qualify as "raving." The qualification for "lunatic" is more subjective ...

You seem to use the terms "national ID" and "ID protection" interchangably. A national ID does not grant you any protection. Indeed, a forged national ID will be FAR more powerful than forged IDs today, and it's likely you'll have a much harder time clearing your name. Today, identity theft leads to ruined credit history, but national ID theft will put you in jail.

Sorry, didn't mean to babble there. There's only one question you need to answer:

How does a national ID give you any protection?

-B

[jaguar]

BItman: this is htepoint ive been making, its a: a false sense of security anyway b: simply raises the stakes c: un unacceptable loss of privicy for buggar all overall.

Then he started quoting Brave New World "what would you ever want to do in private" which distrubed the crap out of me then went silent.

[tw]

Originally posted by Bitman
Indeed, a forged national ID will be FAR more powerful than forged IDs today, and it's likely you'll have a much harder time clearing your name. Today, identity theft leads to ruined credit history, but national ID theft will put you in jail.
...
How does a national ID give you any protection?

1) That question of protection was answered, with example, in the previous thread "A National ID Card".

2) ID theft causing the victim to be arrested - again cited in that previous thread.

3) ID theft is not a crime in most states. As one cop specifically noted, you could not even file a civil suit against someone for stealing your idenity and destroying your credit rating in PA because a destroyed credit rating, according to PA courts, did not constitute a proven loss. A law was recently proposed in PA to amend that problem. I don't know if it had passed. It was a law unique in the nation. ID theft is not a crime in most of the US.

4) The post implies that the author thinks of ID verification in terms of a paper license. Again, how ID verification and protection works was defined in that other thread.

[jaguar]

4) The post implies that the author thinks of ID verification in terms of a paper license. Again, how ID verification and protection works was defined in that other thread.

Unless you've got a doco to back that up(in which case i'd be facinated to see it), that is who you think it'll work - noone knows for sure.

Furthermore if the card has to be read by any kind of eletronic reader (which ia ssumei sth ecase) any unique ID on the card to ID itself to a database can also be copied in the same way CCs are copied.

FOr refrence what some poeple do is find a dody resteraunt owner, get him to hook up a laptop to his CC reader (not very hard) which then copies all the data off the cards, at a later date the guy picks up the laptop and can make himself perfect copies of those credit cards.

Originally posted by jaguar
at a later date the guy picks up the laptop and can make himself perfect copies of those credit cards.

You're blowing hot air here again...

He can make working copies for situations when he does not have to interact with a human. They don't print the signature panel, any embossing, and, generally, nothing on the front. So it's very very far from a "perfect copy" - it's something that will suffice, however, if he wants to get a cash advance at an ATM, or would like to buy Wil Wheaton autographs off eBay.

[jaguar]

ORganised rings in SE ASia can do all that, i've seen them, perfect.

As for the purpose of a National ID, it seems allot of the applications that tw is creating would require little or no human interaction. Particuarly banks who are desperately culling branches and face-to-face servies.

btw, signatures aren't that tough to copy.

[tw]

Originally posted by jaguar
... if the card has to be read by any kind of eletronic reader (which ia ssumei sth ecase) any unique ID on the card to ID itself to a database can also be copied in the same way CCs are copied.

I'm not sure whether I am answering a question based upon some technical incite. Or am I answering a question based upon no comprehension of how even satellites had ID verificaton and protection over a generation ago and based upon no knowledge of how PGP works? However this question was specifically answered in that other discussion entitled "A Nationa ID card". Where in that post if there confusion?

We don't know if it will work, therefore we should not develop a system that anyone can volunteer to use? I simply don't understand the reasoning since the reasoning is so common to MBA mentalities such as Robert Allen of AT&T to stifle innovation and to maintain the status quo.

[jaguar]

I'm not sure whether I am answering a question based upon some technical incite. Or am I answering a question based upon no comprehension of how even satellites had ID verificaton and protection over a generation ago and based upon no knowledge of how PGP works?

For someone who will only answer one point out of a 20-odd point post i don't htink your in any position to start looking down on me, i could be equally arrogant and say you have no knowledge of macropolitcal theory or human nature.

However this question was specifically answered in that other discussion entitled "A Nationa ID card". Where in that post if there confusion?

Once again i coudl say the same thing.

That post was (primary bit)

Attempts to counterfeit the card or to use a duplicate, as even in that satellite security system, causes immediate denial of verification AND notifies authorities immediately of those attempts. This security is absolutely necessary for ID protection and cannot exist in a system of many independent databases.

Encryption has never been my thing, explain to me how, if you can copy every last piece of data on a card perfectly, a database can tell the difference between them.

We don't know if it will work, therefore we should not develop a system that anyone can volunteer to use? I simply don't understand the reasoning since the reasoning is so common to MBA mentalities such as Robert Allen of AT&T to stifle innovation and to maintain the status quo.

Yes - we don't know if it'll work, but obviously conprimising our privicy so thoughly is a good risk ot take on the off chance that we might have a midly more effective way of stopping identity theft?