They're Watching You

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by tw

TWhich one were you trying to suggest?

Re-read my post. Notice I imply nothing, notice I take no stance on it. Pardon me for pointing out something I considered interesting and relevant to the conversation.

I said: "Hey look, other countries do this, too!"
I did not say: "Other countries do this, too, and that makes it the right thing! I feel so strongly about this, in fact, that I feel we should throw out the fourth amendment and let the police state run wild!"

I agree with your point of view and you still managed to attack me.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I agree with your point of view and you still managed to attack me.

Kitsune - I attacked no one. I did as I always do. I make no effort to be polite -becaouse only children need everything polite. Instead I am blunt honest. I only asked a question as to how your post related to the subject. Why? Because it could be interpreted many different ways. Why is it relevant what the British do when we do same thing? Provided was how your post could be interpreted in the context of this dicussion.

Reread that post. It only asks a question and demonstrates ways of interpreting how your post fits into context. You assumed an attack only because of word selection with is never ever choosen to be polite or politically correct. I just asked a question. If I attacked you, it would have been stated bluntly as an attack.

Are you saying we should scrap the American Bill of Rights because British demonstrate the Bill is unnecessary?

A perfect oppurtunity for you to clarify your intentions of that post, which to me were not entirely clear. Why then do you assume an attack? This is me. I never waste words with political correctness. What I have posted is only what I have posted with nothing implied. I don't imply. If I think you are an asshole, then I say so. If I had attacked your thought process, then you would see sentences such as "Kitsune rewrites history for his own personal agenda".

If it is not bluntly stated, then an attack does not exist. Post is nothing more than a simple question. So are you suggesting we should scrap the Bill of Rights? Should I assume your answer is NO due to your last post that only discusses the Fourth Amendment?

[BigV]

They *are* watching us...

On the road this morning I noticed a snarl of one inch wire rope with thimbles on the ends, maybe 25-30 feet long, lying in the left hand lane of the on ramp to the freeway. I was fortunate enough to drive by safely in the right hand lane without incident, but I could see others in my rear view mirror taking evasive action instead of looking down the road. Anyway.

I called 911, got connected to the state patrol and explained what I saw. As we were describing where the hazard was, I drove through a tunnel and lost the dispatcher. At the end of the tunnel, I called back and interestingly got the same dispatcher and we picked up our conversation right away. Once she got the location right, she asked me a weird question, "Matthew, what's your last name?" My name isn't Matthew. I was calling from the phone my new employer issued to me, and the previous holder of the phone was named Matthew. I gave her my first and last name, and I confirmed her statement of the number I was calling from, and we ended the call.

Why the question? It seems she knew my "name", she definitely knew the phone number from which I was calling, why would she ask for my last name? It felt like a test, to confirm that my answer to the question would let her verify what was already on the screen, or contradict it and "tell" her something else. In any event, it was all rightquick, and the cross reference from the callerid data seemed surreal. I just did a test and this phone only transmits the area code and phone number, not the name. That data came from somewhere else. I do indeed feel watched. It is not an especially reasurring feeling.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Well, duh. That's what 911 does.

[wolf]

Most of the time 911 has to go through an assortment of hoops to get that data. I've had to have them track down a couple of suicides based only on a cell phone number off the caller ID. It's a pain in the ass when you're trying to save some dumbass' life, because the 911 dispatch supervisor has to send paperwork to the cell carrier before the carrier will release the information, and with number portability, the original carrier for the number might not have the data you need.

[Clodfobble]

Personally, I'd be tempted to write it off as coincidence. Matthew is a pretty common name. She may have been talking to a Matthew earlier, or just misremembered your name if you did tell her early in the conversation. I would think if it's a company cell phone the company's name would be associated with it anyway, or at least the name of the one person in charge of all the cell phone contracts.

[tw]

Originally Posted by wolf

Most of the time 911 has to go through an assortment of hoops to get that data.

Which goes right back to the same question: Are you saying it is legal but not right for government to track your car with EZ-Pass?

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by tw

Which goes right back to the same question: Are you saying it is legal but not right for government to track your car with EZ-Pass?

Well, it isn't right, but here's a secret: without EZ-Pass, they still track you.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Well, it isn't right, but here's a secret: without EZ-Pass, they still track you.

How besides license plate and cell phone?

But this all goes right back to a bigger question we don't ask. It therefore only festers. What is and is not considered private? I you file taxes electronically, that company can now sell your information? Is it really legal? Is it right?

In essence, there are two questions here. One is the definition of privacy. The other is the definition of identity protection. We are still doing nothing (except kludge patchwork laws) to address either.

Hopefully, (and due to an identity program foolishly based in SS numbers) with the theft of the identity of every serviceman's SS and other information, now we will decide to address the problem of identity protection. And with that program is its cousin that cannot be ignored - a definition of what is and is not private.

But again, I ask wolf a basic question: Are you saying it is legal but not right for government to track your car with EZ-Pass?

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by tw

How besides license plate and cell phone?

When you pass through a toll, you are logged, even if you pay with cash. Your license plate is captured via camera and the software pulls the letters. If you pass through the booth and no coins are detected, you are sent a fine. If I'm not mistaken, the government isn't tracking your car, but the contractor that handles the tolls certainly is.

Since the records may be retrieved by the government, should there be a requirement that will permit transportation anonymously? Of course, you are always welcome to take toll-free roads, but how long before that changes? After all, if people love the convenience of EZ-Pass, perhaps they'd love a system that also keeps their roads safe. Tolls, Speeding tickets, stolen cars, all controlled by a little box that could be required to drive the roads. If the people don't love it, the government will.

Besides, what do you care if people know where you go and how fast, right? As long as you're not doing anything wrong...

[xoxoxoBruce]

When you pass through a toll, you are logged, even if you pay with cash. Your license plate is captured via camera and the software pulls the letters. If you pass through the booth and no coins are detected, you are sent a fine. If I'm not mistaken, the government isn't tracking your car, but the contractor that handles the tolls certainly is.

If the toll is paid, why would the contractors go to the bother and expense to keep a record of the hundreds of millions of cars passing through toll booths every day?
Software pulling plate numbers won't stand up in court, they need a photograph and in some places the photograph must show the drivers face.
I doubt if they have enough people to chase that they can't process the plate pictures manually.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If the toll is paid, why would the contractors go to the bother and expense to keep a record of the hundreds of millions of cars passing through toll booths every day?

If the equipment is there, why wouldn't they? Especially if it might aid law enforcement/court case.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Software pulling plate numbers won't stand up in court, they need a photograph and in some places the photograph must show the drivers face.

But with the system in place, they have both the photograph and plate number. The mailing system is automated. And if you have an EZ-Pass, you might want to read up on the fine print. In Florida, the EZ-Pass is the owner's responsibility and is tied to your car by plate and tied to the owner by DL number. They aren't intended to be transferred from vehicle to vehicle and, should another person use yours to blow through tolls with an empty account, the owner is responsible for handling the fines. With every parking lot filled with cars displaying a little white box on their windshield, you know this might become a big problem.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I doubt if they have enough people to chase that they can't process the plate pictures manually.

With the "drive-by" system on the Greenway, Beeline, and the other toll highways in and around Orlando, there is plenty of opportunity to abuse the system -- you never pass through a booth, you never stop at a gate. You blow under a metal bar at 70mph and never touch the brake. There are no people involved. Why have a manual system when you can automate it?

And of course, there's the fact that car insurance info is routinely entered in most State's data banks as soon as you hang up the phone with that nice gecko. Cops can pull up behind you and run your plates for ownership of the car, warrents, insurance info, etc. Why not destination and origin of travel, as well? Why not ethnicity?

But, of course, none of us is doing anything wrong...

[tw]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

When you pass through a toll, you are logged, even if you pay with cash. Your license plate is captured via camera and the software pulls the letters.

Currently that technology is limited to places such as Border Patrol controlled crossings. Information is so large that border guards completely ignore cars that are detected by the system as stolen.

But your example defines what I was suggesting. Just because license plate and EZ-Pass recording is not standard today has nothing to do with what will exist tomorrow. Yes, your license plate is public information. However should that informaton behnd that license plate be available to a toll taking institution? The toll authority can report a toll violator. But law enforcement - a separate institution - should only have enough information to fine the violator.

Currently, without specific guidelines for identity protection, we have this hodgepodege of systems that permit outright privacy violations. In short, we have no specific standards to define privacy. AND we have no system for you to protect your privacy (ie quickly discover that day that someone else is using your identity).

Which goes right back to a question that wolf has not answered:

Are you saying it is legal but not right for government to track your car?

What should and should not be right?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by tw

But again, I ask wolf a basic question: Are you saying it is legal but not right for government to track your car with EZ-Pass?

Sorry, missed the first time you asked ...

No, it is not legal for them to track you using EZ-Pass, but it does make it easier for "them" to do so.