Armed America

[Jordan]

Bingo! you're catching on. If I am attacked or if I were to be robbed again, I would have the ability to defend myself. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not a raving bloodthirsty flesh eating gun rights fanatic, merely another human being looking out for myself and my property.

I believe I answered this ludicrous statement before.

You say that the criminal would be easily identifiable. How? How would the criminal be easily identifiable before he pulls his weapon? They don't all run about in black masks and waving Tommy guns in the air. You can't be sure that a person is a criminal and out to do you harm until they voice their threat.

Seeing as how I've already been in a situation where a firearm came in handy against 3-1 odds, I'm already 100% ahead of your game on this topic.

Question: Because the majority of rapists are male, should all men have to give up their penises?

Question: Because all D.U.I.s only when you mix alcohol and vehicles, should we ban cars or alcohol?

Responsibility lies with the owner and operator, not with an inanimate object.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Jordan

Bingo! you're catching on. If I am attacked or if I were to be robbed again, I would have the ability to defend myself. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not a raving bloodthirsty flesh eating gun rights fanatic, merely another human being looking out for myself and my property.

I wasn't arguing that. The point that you missed was that your needing a gun to defend yourself is as likely as the police being able to "round up every last one out of the hands of every citizen".

Originally Posted by Jordan

You say that the criminal would be easily identifiable. How?

They'll be the ones with the handguns.

Originally Posted by Jordan

How would the criminal be easily identifiable before he pulls his weapon? They don't all run about in black masks and waving Tommy guns in the air. You can't be sure that a person is a criminal and out to do you harm until they voice their threat.

How can you tell anyone is a criminal before he commits a crime? A rapist doesn't wear a mask, nor does an embezzler, yet those activities are illegal, aren't they. The handgun-using criminal will be easily identified as a criminal when they draw their handgun, and maybe can be dealt with before they use the handgun. Why will it be easier to identify a criminal? Because there'll be no question that the guy with the handgun in his hand might be a law abiding citizen just drawing his handgun for perfectly legal reasons - if he has a handgun, he's a criminal. No brainer.

Originally Posted by Jordan

Seeing as how I've already been in a situation where a firearm came in handy against 3-1 odds, I'm already 100% ahead of your game on this topic.

How old are you? How many times? Do the math: once every "X" years you'll need some sort of protection, and it doesn't have to be a handgun. And remember, the next time you shoot into the ground, one of the generator-stealing-gun-in-the-truck guys might have his handgun with him, and turn and fire, killing you before you get anything but the warning shot off. And then there's your family and loved ones, without you, because you had to reserve the right to have a handgun, which makes it easier for the generator stealers to have a handgun. All this over a generator that you use once every 2-3 years. Hmmmmm. Is it worth it?

Originally Posted by Jordan

Question: Because the majority of rapists are male, should all men have to give up their penises?

No. Penises have other uses, handguns don't. And even misused penises don't kill people. Have you ever heard of someone being "dicked to death"?

Originally Posted by Jordan

Question: Because all D.U.I.s only when you mix alcohol and vehicles, should we ban cars or alcohol?

Just the combination of the two. They each have other uses, handguns don't.

Originally Posted by Jordan

Responsibility lies with the owner and operator, not with an inanimate object.

And consider yourself partially responsible for allowing handguns to be owned and operated by irresponsible people.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

The attempted generator stealing story is in this other thread.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Jordan

your argument holds no water.

IMO: That river never formed in any of your arguments

I believe I answered this ludicrous statement before.

I'm already 100% ahead of your game on this topic.

These commentaries really don't help your argument, especially since they're bullshit.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

These commentaries really don't help your argument,

At this point I'm considering buying a gun out of spite, simply because your continued argument is so annoying. A handgun goddamnit...

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by jinx

At this point I'm considering buying a gun out of spite, simply because your continued argument is so annoying. A handgun goddamnit...

Because you don't agree? Tell me more.

[Jordan]

Personal attacks? let's not resort to that in public, it would make us both look rather foolish.

If something has never happened to you, and it has happened once to me it seems to me as though I am indeed 100% ahead. Let's break it down into a simple points based system: One to nothing would be a 100% lead, two to one would be a 50% lead and so on. The situation I was in has never occured to you and here's hoping it never does.

Tell me, when these handgun wielding criminals are not deterred by these laws you propose, what then? Criminals don't care about laws, they willingly break them in order to gain whatever their objective is. This is what makes them criminals. I should lose my rights because someone else was violent, malicious or just plain negligent?

How about those people who actually use their rifles for hunting? People in the deep woods or Appalachians who use the meat they hunt to provide food for their subsistence? They should lose their ability to provide fresh meat? The government doesn't help them enough and some are just too proud to sign up for it. It's not a way oflife that i would choose but that's their choice, that's their way of life. Who are you to turn them into criminals by outlawing their guns and living that way?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Jordan

...
One to nothing would be a 100% lead,....

That's incorrect, but outside the scope of this discussion.

Originally Posted by Jordan

Tell me, when these handgun wielding criminals are not deterred by these laws you propose, what then?

I answered that - go back and read. I don't want to

Originally Posted by Jordan

Criminals don't care about laws, they willingly break them in order to gain whatever their objective is. This is what makes them criminals. I should lose my rights because someone else was violent, malicious or just plain negligent?

Yes, it happens all the time.

Originally Posted by Jordan

How about those people who actually use their rifles for hunting? ...

Again, read the thread. I have only spoken out against handguns.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by jinx

At this point I'm considering buying a gun out of spite, simply because your continued argument is so annoying. A handgun goddamnit...

BTW, you've hurt my feelings.

[jinx]

Well I'm sorry Spexx, I don't want you to hurt your feelings. But my god man, you've been arguing for page after page and aren't really saying anything (yes, I know I don't have to read, but I did, and now I'm commenting).
The right to own guns is guaranteed in the constitution, end of story. The need to own guns, however subjective, is clearly felt and has been well explained by several posters. Nucular weapons, future criminals, and fantasy worlds where guns don't exist do not belong in an intelligent conversation about gun rights.

If I felt the need to own a gun, to protect myself and my children, while my husband works long hours in a different state, why would you argue with me? Keep in mind that we don't have local police - just the state police about 1/2 hour away. Why do you think I should, hypothetically, give up my handgun?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by jinx

The right to own guns is guaranteed in the constitution, end of story.

I don't think it's the end of the story. The constitution has changed, and will change again. There was no guarantee for women's voting rights in the "original" constitution, now there is. Same with slavery, and alcohol has been ok, forbidden, and made ok again. We're pretty fickle with the constitution.

Originally Posted by jinx

Nucular weapons, future criminals, and fantasy worlds where guns don't exist do not belong in an intelligent conversation about gun rights.

If you can't imagine a better world, you'll never acheive it.

Originally Posted by jinx

If I felt the need to own a gun, to protect myself and my children, while my husband works long hours in a different state, why would you argue with me? Keep in mind that we don't have local police - just the state police about 1/2 hour away. Why do you think I should, hypothetically, give up my handgun?

You can use other means to protect yourselves, like alarms, barbed wire, whatever. Your having handguns available means that handguns are available to others, who can use them against you and yours. No handguns, less chance little Johnny gets accidentally shot by his friend, or purposely shot by his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend.

You can protect yourself with other weapons, including rifle and shotgun. I feel that a world with rifles and shotguns would be better than a world with handguns because they cannot be hidden as easily, and therefore cannot be used in crimes as easily.

There's two good (IMHO) reasons. There's more in the thread.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

If you can't imagine a better world, you'll never acheive it.

The difficulty is imagining better people to inhabit this world.

bit from Serenity
Reynolds-Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave.

Communism was another one of these wonderful ideas that forgot to consider people.
The gun folks envision a world where criminals are the ones who live in fear. They envision a world where individuals take responsibility for their own saftey. Your vision is in conflict with their vision.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by jinx

If I felt the need to own a gun, to protect myself and my children, while my husband works long hours in a different state, why would you argue with me? Keep in mind that we don't have local police - just the state police about 1/2 hour away. Why do you think I should, hypothetically, give up my handgun?

Sorry, but one more thing. If you plan to protect yourself from something like a home invasion, you'd better have your handgun with you, ready to fire. If your gun is in the bedroom, or locked in a safe, before you can get to the gun the invader will have bashed in your skull with Jim's old bowling trophy.

Now, if you are carrying the gun around the house, or keep it in a convenient place, it's much more likely to be gotten a hold of by the kids, with the result possibly being injury or death. That's a risk I'm not willing to take, in my house with my family. The likelihood of a home invasion is much less than the likelihood of misuse or accident.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Now, if you are carrying the gun around the house, or keep it in a convenient place, it's much more likely to be gotten a hold of by the kids, with the result possibly being injury or death. That's a risk I'm not willing to take, in my house with my family. The likelihood of a home invasion is much less than the likelihood of misuse or accident.

That's precisely the point, I'm not telling you what to do in your house. You don't seem to feel the same.


But yes, guns can be such a bother. Now I have to drive all the way to Boothwyn, must be 3 or 4 miles, to pick up another gun I've won. The 7th I've won IIRC.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by jinx

At this point I'm considering buying a gun out of spite, simply because your continued argument is so annoying. A handgun goddamnit...

You know what, if I would live in the good ol' US and A, I probably would do the same. Preferably an AK47 or a riot gun, the more deadly the better. Shoot first, ask questions later.

Because EVERY fucking moron has one. Live as the Romans live.

Having said that, I'm glad where I live I don't have to and I sincerely hope that it will never have get to that stage, just as these stupid liability cases, which fortunately doesn't seem to settle down here as well, thank God. I guess it's the price of civil indepence and I prepared to pay that.