You Can't Prove You Exist

[Cloud]

you may be right, but body modification is often not "logical"--it's not really something you do with your mind as the primary force behind it

[skysidhe]

You missed my point but it dosn't matter. I understand where you are comming from and what you are saying.

[Cicero]

Yeah, I'm with skysidhe. I understand what you are saying. I just don't think you get what I've been saying....maybe you're just skimming and not really reading or something. Especially since you are trying to hand me a list of reading material. Well, thanks for the info.

[Cloud]

well, I have two people accusing me of ignoring them, which surprises me, because I thought I made an informative and thoughtful post.

My statement relating body modification to proving one's existence to myself is opinion only--just what struck me as I read the thread, and I don't have anything other than my personal feelings to back this up. It's possible it's not accurate, nor even related to this rather light-hearted thread, because I tend to relate everything to body modification--it's just my thing. Cartesian theory is related to society's treatment of this subject, and I can provide more quotes from my sources--but I don't think that's what you are looking for.

I am also not handing anyone a list of reading material--I offered, in case anyone was interested. I'm just always eager to share my passion with other people--aren't you?

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Flint

You can't prove to me that you exist. Don't even bother, it's impossible.

Yes, I can.


I choose not to.

[Flint]

I completely understood what Cloud said, but I can't find the part where Cicero said anything.

I'm not a sloppy reader. ...Maybe you were thinking it in your head but didn't actually type it it into the computer? ::::::

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by BigV

Yes, I can.


I choose not to.

The proof is
too large to
fit in this
margin.

I flushed proof of my existence earlier.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Cloud

Odd that this should come up in the "you can't prove you exist" thread, because one of the motivations, I think, that people have (among the legion) for body modification is just that--to prove to themselves that they exist, to reinforce the envelope of the body with meaning.

It's a tension between western society and history, and non-western society. The Greek ideal was of bodily perfection; furthered by the medieval Christian church's horror of imperfection and abnormaility, and by the Enlightenment philosophers, such as Decartes. "Civilization" in the Western view is the triumph of man over nature, but we are moving away from that.

Here is what Victoria Pitts, a scholar and the author of "In the Flesh" says:

"Among the problems of the self-mutiliation argument is that it uncritically relies on a classical ideal of the skin as a pristine, smooth, closed envelope for the self, and a notion of the body and self as fixed and unchanging. These notions were inherited from Enlightenment traditions . . The Enlightenment affirmed a mind/body binary in which the mind was seen as more significant, while the body was dismissed as a hindrance to res cogitans, Decartes' term for the intellect and selfhood."

Opening the body in the form of pricking it with a needle goes against this Western idea of bodily boundaries. In tribal societies, both ancient and modern, this legacy is obviously lacking, and marking the body carries with it a whole slew of meanings, from status symbols to rites of passage, to marks of humanity.

If you are a Westerner, if you mark your body, you are mutilating it. You are demonstrating your disdain for traditional norms and are likely to be viewed as dangerous, criminal, sexually, deviant or psychologically disturbed. Some of these views are changing, of course, but try getting medical or dental treatment if you are heavily modded and see how lingering these ideas can be.

I hope I've added to your understanding. It's really a pretty complex question, and I certainly do not consider myself any kind of classical or Enlightenment scholar. I can recommend a number of good books if you are interested in body modification or philosophy of the human body.

Originally Posted by Cicero

Ok .....well if people in western civilization believe in Cartesian Philosophy and as you say "grossness of the body", which I have never heard an ancient say pertaining to this philosophy, what would be wrong with modification or mutilation?
In short.... this isn't adding up to me. Could you please clarify this for me?

This was my question which was more of a statement.
I'm still trying to get out of this conversation.
Cloud- just read through your own statements about what westerners believed about the body and see if anything comes up.
In your haste to link ancient philosophy with body modification you ended up contradicting yourself. No big deal.
I understand what you were trying to say. I was merely trying to get you to see a very minimal fault in your own logic (from thread to thread) without taking the time to spell it out. This completely blew up in my face because this is a forum and I have to do something obnoxious like quote out of your threads to get you to eat your words. Or do I? No... because it's not that important, and thus far I like you, and I am playing nice.

Can I be done with this now? I always end up completely off topic and I'm trying to get out of that terrible habit.
Someone says, "how 'bout them Bears?" and I start telling them about robots.

[Cloud]

I'm sorry you feel I was unresponsive, but sure, I'm more than happy to drop it.

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Ok .....well if people in western civilization believe in Cartesian Philosophy and as you say "grossness of the body", which I have never heard an ancient say pertaining to this philosophy, what would be wrong with modification or mutilation?
In short.... this isn't adding up to me. Could you please clarify this for me?

I wish I would have read this. I am the lazy skimmer it seems.

Originally Posted by Cloud

well, I have two people accusing me of ignoring them, which surprises me, because I thought I made an informative and thoughtful post.

My statement relating body modification to proving one's existence to myself is opinion only--just what struck me as I read the thread, and I don't have anything other than my personal feelings to back this up. It's possible it's not accurate, nor even related to this rather light-hearted thread, because I tend to relate everything to body modification--it's just my thing. Cartesian theory is related to society's treatment of this subject, and I can provide more quotes from my sources--but I don't think that's what you are looking for.

I am also not handing anyone a list of reading material--I offered, in case anyone was interested. I'm just always eager to share my passion with other people--aren't you?

I didn't accuse you of ignoring me.

but anyway...I'm curious as to why do you say you relate everything to mody modification and it's just your 'thing'

what is it??your thing? What do you look like? Are you modified?Goth? what?

[Cloud]

you know, I'm happy to discuss body modification ad nauseum, but I feel I've made some missteps here and don't want to exacerbate matters, so I think I'll just not hijack Flint's thread anymore.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Cloud

...so I think I'll just not hijack Flint's thread anymore.

This thread is designed to make people think, and make people talk. I'm interested in what people are thinking about, and how they think about things.

[Cloud]

terrific. another misstep. Can't seem to get this right, and it's making me pretty sad.

[Flint]

Don't be sad, I like you. You're interesting. Like Digital Underground said: "Doowhatchalike"