Impeding changes to our Health Care system

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

To say we shouldn't pass healthcare reform because of illegals is cutting off our nose to spite our face.

To say this suggests that you KNOW for CERTAIN that proposed heath care reform will be successful and beneficial - and you don't. It may be your opinion that it will be - just like it is my concern that over-medication will be on the rise and actual quality of care will suffer. But again, we can't know these things at this point.

To suggest that people shouldn't ask questions and actually try to understand what will happen is doesn't benefit anyone.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by jinx

To say this suggests that you KNOW for CERTAIN that proposed heath care reform will be successful and beneficial - and you don't.

Well, of course it is just my opinion, just as it is the opinion of many that reform won't work. I would say that most can agree that the current system isn't working and is unsustainable for our future without some kind of correction being made. I think, though, that it is important that current discussions over the way to correct it not get sidetracked and distorted by unrelated issues, including illegal immigrants. ("Lie!", etc.) The current reform plan doesn't concern them. We pay for them through distributed costs now and, if the bill is passed, we will continue to pay for them in the future. No change. Anything affecting that would result from different legislation.

Originally Posted by Merc

I don't think anyone has stated that, only that it needs to be addressed.

It does, yes, but as stated no one is going to deny illegals emergency care with or without reform. The issue of illegals has to be tended to at a level above healthcare reform -- the only thing that could be done, realistically, involving healthcare is to permit them to be treated under the same plan. No one is going to turn them away, no one would dare to try to pass legislation requiring proof of citizenship at the doors of the ambulance or ER. Immigration reform is something else entirely.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Well, of course it is just my opinion, just as it is the opinion of many that reform won't work. I would say that most can agree that the current system isn't working and is unsustainable for our future without some kind of correction being made. I think, though, that it is important that current discussions over the way to correct it not get sidetracked and distorted by unrelated issues, including illegal immigrants. ("Lie!", etc.) The current reform plan doesn't concern them. We pay for them through distributed costs now and, if the bill is passed, we will continue to pay for them in the future. No change. Anything affecting that would result from different legislation.

How do you know if you can afford something if you don't know how much it costs? Illegal aliens will cost health care money and will not be paying into the system. A discussion of their numbers and the level of care they will receive is entirely related and relevant - unlike the amount of money that Bush wasted in Iraq.

No good argument can be made for rushing thru reforms that don't get the job done right.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by jinx

How do you know if you can afford something if you don't know how much it costs?

By that argument, government can do nothing. (Yeah. I know. Some people will say that's an improvement.) But the truth is that everything that the government does at that level will cut a wide swath. There's no way you can tally all the downstream costs.

I gotta go with Kitsune on this one. 1) I haven't seen any figures that undocumented immigrants are a significant portion of those getting free treatment. 2) Even if you've got figures to show the above, this is not a med insurance issue. It's a whole other deal. I'd say give 'em all social security cards, let 'em pay taxes like the rest of us and call it a day.

Originally Posted by dar512

By that argument, government can do nothing. (Yeah. I know. Some people will say that's an improvement.) But the truth is that everything that the government does at that level will cut a wide swath. There's no way you can tally all the downstream costs.

I gotta go with Kitsune on this one. 1) I haven't seen any figures that undocumented immigrants are a significant portion of those getting free treatment. 2) Even if you've got figures to show the above, this is not a med insurance issue. It's a whole other deal. I'd say give 'em all social security cards, let 'em pay taxes like the rest of us and call it a day.

Absolutely. This is not an immigration reform bill.

And, the last report I saw, many illegal immigrants pay fica taxes (as a result of having a fake SS card) and are contributing to social security to the tune of $6 billion annually and Medicare to the tune of $1.5 billion annually and wont reap the direct benefits.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by jinx

No good argument can be made for rushing thru reforms that don't get the job done right.

Absolutely correct, again!

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

When my bones were protuding from my arm I don't remember them beating me up for my insurance card: they got me into treatment and the paperwork came later. This isn't, of course, the same as showing up with the sniffles, which is what uninsured people HAVE to do because they have nowhere else to go, under the current system.

When we took my daughter to the ER this summer, nobody asked about payment or insurance until after she was taken care of.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Maybe we just know different people but this is hardly my experience. In one private practice clinic where I work 4 doctors make up the practice, any 2 or 3 of them are there every day 5 days a week, plus a Nurse Practitioner and some times a PA. Everyone of them sees 40 to 65 patients every day. And they are specialists. Few specialists have the kind of time they can just sit around and have lazy days on their boats. They all work 7 days a week seeing patients in the hospital on a rotational basis. They take 24 hour call Mon thru Thurs and 72 hour call on a rotational basis. Malpractice is well over $100,000 a year. They have a staff of over 30 in this one office, from RN's to clerks and an office manager. The office is open from 830 am to when ever they are done, usually around 5 pm. How long do you think it takes to get an education to start and run a practice like this? How about the personal and financial costs associated with getting the education? Pick a specialty and I will give you an idea of the time it takes to get that specialty. The idea that most docs live the Life of Reilly is a misnomer in my experience. The hours are long and most people could never keep up.

My workplace has the ophthalmologist, who has been here for about 30 years, a tech, a receptionist, a billing/accounting clerk, an office manager, and me. The doctor work 1/2 days on Mon, Wed, and Thu, full day on Fri, full day on 3 of 4 Tues/month. The rest of us work more than he does, and make less. He drives a Mercedes, owns 4 properties in Haddonfield, a VERY expensive town, flies places on his quarterly (or more) vacations. Tough life.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

My workplace has the ophthalmologist, who has been here for about 30 years, a tech, a receptionist, a billing/accounting clerk, an office manager, and me. The doctor work 1/2 days on Mon, Wed, and Thu, full day on Fri, full day on 3 of 4 Tues/month. The rest of us work more than he does, and make less. He drives a Mercedes, owns 4 properties in Haddonfield, a VERY expensive town, flies places on his quarterly (or more) vacations. Tough life.

I want to be him. Some make better choices than others. I deal with surgeons, few if any lead this type of life. Oh, and they busted ass to get there, a journey few would do or could do. Some are willing to go the distance and make the sacrifice to have a better life, some are not. Those that do should not feel bad or be vilified for hard work and reward.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I want to be him. Some make better choices than others. I deal with surgeons, few if any lead this type of life. Oh, and they busted ass to get there, a journey few would do or could do. Some are willing to go the distance and make the sacrifice to have a better life, some are not. Those that do should not feel bad or be vilified for hard work and reward.

I don't think anyone is villifying doctors. Most doctors do work hard to get where they are, and they deserve to be paid well for what they do.

People are, however, villifying insurance companies, and rightly so. Look at it logically, all they do is collect money and then pay for the things they think they should pay for. They deny many claims, even though people have been paying in good faith, and many of those people either die while fighting the insurance company, or they end up going bankrupt because the costs are so high. They are glorified middlemen. If the government was the payor, you would just go to the doctor and never see the bill. The doctor would bill the government, and the government would pay the bill. Pretty simple.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

When we took my daughter to the ER this summer, nobody asked about payment or insurance until after she was taken care of.
.

That amazes me. Not once in my memory have I ever received care before insurance or payment was verified. Even sitting in the ER with a dislocated ankle I had to hand over the debit card and insurance card first.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by lookout123

That amazes me. Not once in my memory have I ever received care before insurance or payment was verified. Even sitting in the ER with a dislocated ankle I had to hand over the debit card and insurance card first.

This has been my experience as well. With a screaming/passing out post-surgical infant, with a husband who though he was having a heart attack, with a toddler with a pistachio jammed in his nose, myself with the sniffles (face swelling sinus infection) multiple times. They have never not verified insurance information first.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Well, of course it is just my opinion, just as it is the opinion of many that reform won't work. I would say that most can agree that the current system isn't working and is unsustainable for our future without some kind of correction being made.

Barbara Boxer stated recently (I think it was on on Morning Joe) that without reform, people in California would paying 41% of their income on health insurance by 2016, if we don't pass reform. I have heard that number quoted elsewhere as well, so it is very true the current system is unsustainable. How many of you can afford to pay 41% of your income for insurance? (I don't know if that number includes co-pays and deductibles, or if it is just for premiums.)

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Wait until someone tells him that his taxpayer money puts out that crack whore's house when it is on fire, educates that crack whore's children, and that she drives on roads that he pays for.

Merc and plenty of people like him love to see trillions spent to send the military halfway around the world to provide welfare to people in another country, but don't want to drop a dime on American citizens. One is somehow evil socialism, the other is patriotic. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I think, though, that it is important that current discussions over the way to correct it not get sidetracked and distorted by unrelated issues, including illegal immigrants. ("Lie!", etc.) The current reform plan doesn't concern them.