9 years and 4500 Dead Americans

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by richlevy

Not to mention the trillion or so dollars that we would all really like to have about now.

Enough to have paid for single payer health care, fixed our national infrastructure, fully funded Social Security.......

Hearing conservatives in Congress fight over every billion spent on social programs now, insisting on offsetting cuts, I keep wanting to scream 'WHERE WERE YOU ****OLES WHEN YOU DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO INCLUDE THE WAR IN THE BUDGET'.

This. This. THIS YOU ****ING MORONS!!!!!!

I really don't know how much clearer it can be.

[JBKlyde]

It could have been a whole lot worse..

[tw]

Originally Posted by JBKlyde

It could have been a whole lot worse..

How could it have been worse? The president and his wackos from a conservative movement lied repeatedly to justify the massacre of over 100,000 Iraqi civilians. That $2billion war (just another of their hundreds of lies) has cost us $1trillion. And will probably cost up to $4trillion once we pay for so much scrapped equipment and the massive injuries incurred by so many soldiers. We have only just started to pay for that war - which is how economics work.

Why could it be worse when so many Americans gleefully believed outright lies from those, who promote a political agenda for their own self serving purposes, even massacred 4500 American soldiers for no purpose? I don't even know a probably larger numbers of American contractors also not counted. Murder because wacko extremists consider lying to be normal and acceptable.

To go to war means three requirements must always exist. But again, because so many will forget what was posted when scumbags were so giddy to massacre American soldiers. 1) A smoking gun. Never existed in Iraq. 2) A strategic objective. None existed. 3) An exit strategy. None existed until wackos were so discredited that they could no longer ignore what far more intelligent generals were saying all along.

Iraq is a defeat directly attributed to so many who espouse rhetoric from people such as UG. As one Iraqi civilian was recently quoted. He could walk home at 4 AM when Saddam was in power. I cannot even walk home safely today at 4 PM. None of the environmental conditions necessary to make a productive country exist in Iraq any more. And Iraqis rightly blame the reason - America. Maybe only Fox News forgets to report that well publized fact.

Now, let's go back to what was even posted here so many years ago. Sahdr quietly stopped conducting war when it became apparent that once America left, then he could take up his purpose. Sahdr went to Homs in Iran to finish his studies. Now that the 800 pound guerilla is gone, Iraqis are expected to pick up where they left off. A power struggle begins. It may remain where all conflicts and wars end - negotiated settlement. Or it may become violent. Now is when we really learn what we have done to subvert stability in that part of the world. We even left Iran with the most favorable influence ever in Iraq. The dumbest leaders America ever had - Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfovitz, Bolton Feith, etc - deserve all the credit. Feith, in particular, was so dumb that some American Generals told him so to his face.

To learn why America has so been harmed, see the political agenda that replaced pragmatic analysis. See the Project for a New American Century. Then review old Cellar discussions to learn how obviously destructive that agenda would be - accurately identified in the Cellar almost a decade ago.

Meanwhile, we had a real enemy in Afghanistan. Those same scumbags all but protected bin Laden. Even surrendered to the Taliban in 2002. That war is also a legacy of wacko extremist who even violated basic military doctrine taught in China 2000 years before Columbus. That surrender also traceable to wacko extremists who needed to attack Saddam to protect their legacy in history. Today's fiasco in Afghanistan directly traceable to wacko extremists who even said, "America does not do nation building."

Well, let's put up numbers traceable in part to the wackos who love war. In 1992 dollars, an American under 35 was averaging $45K annually. In those same 1992 dollars, an American under 35 was averaging $47K. In 2008, the average under 35 American averaged $32K. Of course. Nations who love war routinely destroy their economies. And let's not fool anyone. Due to what those wacko extremists did in Desert Storm, we have been at war for over 20 years.

It is not just George Jr's fault. His wacko extremists have done 20 years of damage to America in the name of a political agenda (ie Project for a New American Century), conservatism, and by just being plain dumb. Then blame liberal press, liberal parties, liberal universities, liberal ... what ever they could invent for all failures. How many times would they deny and contradict well proven military doctrine defined over 2500 years ago? Even with six on every hand, I don't have enough fingers.

If it could have been worse, then show me what other military doctrine they did not violate? And show me with numbers. $4trillion. 100,000+ dead. 4,500 massacred for no purpose. Surrender to the Taliban. All but protected bin Laden. 20 years of war directly traceable to their drinking champaign rather than providing Swartzkopf the work they were required to do before Desert Storm started. How could anyone in a position of power be dumber?

[Beest]

Originally Posted by Brianna

This. This. THIS YOU ****ING MORONS!!!!!!

I really don't know how much clearer it can be.

They are playing this a lot in my area.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Beest

They are playing this a lot in my area.

I LOVE THIS COMMERCIAL. I watch Politics Nation with Sharpton nearly every day when I get home from work, and while I don't always agree with him and often find his style irritating, I can't get enough of him talking about bluhbr'y paah.

edit: Kenan Thompson doing Rev. Al on SNL a few weeks ago. http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-li...arpton/1372907

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Brianna

This. This. THIS YOU ****ING MORONS!!!!!!

I really don't know how much clearer it can be.

What is clear is you don't know either the value or the importance of breaking a tyranny whenever you can. We could and we did. You can only see the cost. I see the benefit.

I'm not a Fascist, Brianna, but those guys were (go ahead, look it up), and you look a lot like one right here. Now compare your semblances to mine.

[Griff]

Those guys were Baathist. They were Arab socialist, anti-colonialist, and anti-imperialists. He slid into a dictatorial regime like a lot of lefty insurgents, but was not a fascist. Like it or not fascism is a product of the totalitarian right not the totalitarian left. Islamo-fascist was great war propaganda but poor political science.

[Lamplighter]

One day after the US troops leave Iraq the turmoil deepens...

NY Times
JACK HEALY
December 19, 2011

Arrest Order for Sunni Leader in Iraq Opens New Rift

BAGHDAD — Iraq’s Shiite-dominated government was thrown into crisis on Monday night
as authorities issued an arrest warrant for the Sunni vice president,
accusing him of running a personal death squad that assassinated
security officials and government bureaucrats.

The sensational charges against Tariq al-Hashimi,
one of the country’s most prominent Sunni leaders,
threatened to inflame widening sectarian and political conflicts in Iraq
just one day after the last American convoy of American troops rolled
out of the country into Kuwait.

Reidar Visser, an analyst of Iraqi politics and editor of the blog historiae.org,
called the situation the worst crisis Iraq had faced in five years.

“Any leading Sunni politician seems now to be a target of this campaign by Maliki,”
Mr. Visser said. “It seems that every Sunni Muslim or secularist is in danger
of being labeled either a Baathist or a terrorist.”
<snip>

Members of the Iraqiya coalition walked away from Parliament on Saturday,
accusing Mr. Maliki of seizing power and thwarting democratic procedures
through a wave of politically tinged arrests in recent weeks.

The boycott was the culmination of months of political discord,
and signaled the near breakdown of relations between two
of the country’s most powerful political adversaries.

And the beat goes on...

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

One day after the US troops leave Iraq the turmoil deepens...

NY Times
JACK HEALY
December 19, 2011

Arrest Order for Sunni Leader in Iraq Opens New Rift


And the beat goes on...

Jeez, they could at least wait until the dust of departure has settled.

I was glad we have managed this more-or-less dignified exit, although as has been pointed out, there are still lots of foreigners running about in Iraq, many of them with guns. I hope Iraq holds together for a few years at least. It would be embarrassing if it disintegrates too soon. I suspect within five or ten years it will face another major upheaval and will either break up or be seized by another tyrant.

IMHO, the Iraq war was NOT worth it. Yes, the world is down one brutal but insignificant tyrant. #$%% him, but so what? The price was an enormous political and economic strain on the US and its allies, and has left these substantially weaker than before. Meanwhile, resurgent Russia and China - the real threats to global peace and justice - have grown unchecked.

Originally Posted by Undertoad
tw, what are the strategic objectives and exit strategy in Afghanistan?

Not just TW, I'd like to hear anyone answer this question.

The worthwhile "exit strategy" is spelled W-I-N. Regardless of resistance, uncaring of time. Make that which is less-than-democracy or pretends-to-democracy extinct. Your world will improve.

Yeah nice soundbite, what conditions constitute winning? And are you really keen on bleeding indefinitely in the mountains of FUBARistan while China continues to move ahead of the US?

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

<snip>

Not just TW, I'd like to hear anyone answer this question.
<snip>

IMO, Bush's war in Iraq came about for one rather trivial reason...
It drove GWB nuts that Sadam was giving $10K to the families of suicide bombers in Afghanistan.
It was then up to Cheney to contrive the war to gain control of Iraq's oil fields,
which the oil industry wanted for when the Saudi fields run dry.

----

My answer to the UT's question is the same as back when
doves and hawks were arguing over how to get out of Viet Nam.

During one TV show, there was a vehement debate between talking heads,
and Shirley McLain (an outspoken dove) was asked how she proposed to get out of Nam.
Her answer was: " By boat "
.

[ZenGum]

Yeah, but Afghanistan is landlocked.

We're really screwed now, aren't we?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

It drove GWB nuts that Sadam was giving $10K to the families of suicide bombers in Afghanistan.
It was then up to Cheney to contrive the war to gain control of Iraq's oil fields.

George Jr's autobiography demonstrates why none of that was relevant to him. Remember, George Jr was only a figurehead. Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al made the decisions. George Jr did not even read his own memos - as demonstrated by the 911 Commission Report and reported by his Secretary of the Treasury.

Purpose of war is to take a conflict to the negotiation table. That's the only purpose. The military gets there. Then a leadership presents surrender terms and implements plans made before a first battle was fought. Basic military doctrine understood over 2000 years ago.

When Swartzkopf asked for those terms, our civilian leadership had no plans. Swartzkopf had to invent terms, on the spot, without any planning or forethought. It was not his job. Cheney, Rumsfeld, or the other Washington based leadership failed to do their job.

Saddam attacked and killed maybe 10,000 or 20,000 civilians in Basra as US soldiers watched helplessly from less than 5 miles away. Saddam kept and liberally used amour to suppress all dissent. Surrender terms were so flawed that we eventually had to create no-fly zones for another decade. Clinton finally solved many of those problems with multiple cruise missile strikes.

Cheney, et al are recorded in history as the reason why Saddam survived. They needed any excuse to exonerate their legacy. They invented reason to attack Saddam. To have the military correct their mistakes.

Iraqis could not liberate themselves from Saddam because Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al screwed up. Failed to understand that the purpose of all war is only negotiations at a peace table. No way around military principles taught 2500 years ago. Civilians threw away the military's resounding victory by not planning for the peace.

Irony was obvious with the fall of Baghdad. Within days, it was obvious that a same civilian leadership (Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al) had, again, done no planning for the peace. You can read that obvious problem when it was happening here in the Cellar. Next six months required implementing of phase four planning. Those same civilian leaders (and Paul Bremer) did no planning. Their 'do nothing' eventually made necessary an insurgency.

This was so obvious to all generals that one general after another resigned rather than take command of Mission Accomplished. In order to find any general, Rumsfeld had to promote a one star general (without any experience but as a division commander) to two stars so that he could take command.

Sanchez was totally unprepared for the job. But he was the only general that would take command. As a result, thousand of American soldiers were killed. In part because another basic military doctrine was violated. Only one supreme commander can be in the field. Rumsfeld, Cheney, et al had so little grasp as to create two constantly fighting commanders - Bremer and Sanchez.

In Desert Storm and Mission Accomplished, a military victory was trashed by ignorant civilians who only had their political agenda. Extremists such as Cheney, Rumsfeld, and other "Project for a New American Century" founders had no basic knowledge. Worse, their political agenda said, "America does not do nation building".

Mission Accomplished was those extremists trying to protect their legacy. Find any excuse to take out Saddam so history would not blame them. Because they made no plans for the peace. So what did they do in Mission Accomplished? Again, made no plans for the peace.

And what did they do in Afghanistan? No plans for the peace explain why America all but surrendered Afghanistan to the Taliban in 2002.

They attacked Saddam to protect their legacy. Then made the exact same mistakes again. Read posts that describe it as it was happening in the Cellar back in and after 2002. Because their mistakes were that obvious that long ago.

[tw]

Wow. The Axis of Evil now expands to include FUBARistan. Another nation we must unilaterally attack for no reason.

Again we attack a nation that our citizens believe is evil ... but cannot find on a map.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Griff

Islamo-fascist was great war propaganda but poor political science.

Islamo-fascism is how the least educated extremists among us are told how to think. Empowered by an emotion call hate. If using emotion, then they will not ask damning questions that can only come from logic and education.

The sound byte was invented for the same reason that George Jr could disband Alec Station in 2005 - to all but protect bin Laden. A true right wing extremist conservative should have been angry. But the least educated among us (wacko extremists) are told by Limbaugh, et al how to think. Just like a good Brown Shirt. So wacko extremists were joyous when Alec Station was disbanded. Protecting bin Laden was good for the political agenda.

Wacko extremists even got Lowes to stop advertising on a program that introduces Americans to a patriotic American minority group. Because wacko extremists need Islamo-Fascism to inspire more hate just like the KKK. How many in Europe have heard how wacko extremists got Lowes to endorse their hate?

Hate rallies wacko extremism - a group unique from conservatives due to an inability to think for themselves. Extremists need Islamo-Fascism and other soundbytes to shout down the bourgeois and intelligencia.

They would only be shouting Georgian chants for our amusement if it did not cause the massacre of thousands of American soldiers for no purpose. Islamo-Fascism is recited loudly by those who would otherwise be members in good standing in the KKK. Hate is a major source of their political power.