Depressing/ Suicide

[sexobon]

The message here is that the relief of pain through suicide often comes at the expense of causing pain to others, thinking that it won't cause pain to others may be a delusional rationalization, and that the delusion may be transient unless the suicide is accomplished. The message also provided for exceptions. The overview is that good people can have bad ideas and it's OK for others who care to challenge those ideas.

[it]

Originally Posted by sexobon

The message here is that the relief of pain through suicide often comes at the expense of causing pain to others, thinking that it won't cause pain to others may be a delusional rationalization, and that the delusion may be transient unless the suicide is accomplished. The message also provided for exceptions. The overview is that good people can have bad ideas and it's OK for others who care to challenge those ideas.

I am surprised: Wasn't it you that preached at one point that entitlement is in the eye of the beholden? I feel like previously we were on somewhat opposite ends in regards to much of the same principles here.

I agree that it can be a delusional rationalization - people who kill themselves because they feel worthless so they assume nobody would really care or be hurt by it. The reverse illusion probably happens as well - you hear about people who try to kill themselves with suicide notes drenched in defiance, a "this will show them!" kind sentiment, when often by the time they reach that point there is no "them" to show anything too. Likewise, you could also be delusional in regards to your motivations in life and reasons to live.
Again though, that is an attached negative - delusions in general can be rather negative and often make for bad judgement calls, and this would also apply to suicides, as it would apply to driving and career decisions and extreme sports - that's not an attribute of any of those, it's an attribute of delusions.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by traceur

I am surprised: Wasn't it you that preached at one point that entitlement is in the eye of the beholden? ...

Apples and oranges.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."


There's a distinction between matters of life or death and matters of happiness in that the former is an outcome while the latter is a pursuit. Social propriety changes with the gravity of the situation. You have the right to kill yourself and others have the right to pursue changing your mind if that would make them happy. You have the right not to kill yourself to keep them happy; but, no right to entitlement for it, only to the pursuit of entitlement (if that's what makes you happy) which would be at the others' discretion.

I can see how that might surprise someone honing talking the talk without walking the walk. I'm sure it could be surprising for other reasons too.

[footfootfoot]

One of the things many people don't realize about depression is that is can completely change your reality. Just as you now think and feel and know to be true that suicide isn't the answer (for the sake of argument) depression makes an entirely different reality true. As true as your name and address. You are worthless. No one cares if you live or die. There is absolutely no future for you.

These thoughts are the reality for many depressed people. Reality as in un-assailably true, not a mood or a feeling. As true as your name and address and the sky being blue. People telling you that you are loved and worthy mean as much as someone telling you that if you wish hard enough you'll win the lottery without a ticket.

I've never been one to walk out of a movie before it's overm but I am lucky to have a mind that is able to know the thoughts aren't true and that like a bad case of food poisoning they will pass and I just have to ride them out. They are there along with all their shitty friends; shame, judgement, and ridicule.

A big motivator for me is that I don't want You Know Who being the sole author of my kids' lives.

[it]

Originally Posted by sexobon

I can see how that might surprise someone honing talking the talk without walking the walk. I'm sure it could be surprising for other reasons too.

Actually they would probably apply a false-consensus bias and thus expect you to do exactly as you did, so they wouldn't be likely to be surprised at all. I was surprised because the talk was not only not applied but outright contradicted in the walk... probably because of the same bias on my end, and good faith in people.

We... Are not going to get along very well.

To answer what you are trying to rationalize: Yes, you can intervene when someone tries to kill themselves. It depends on extent of the intervention though (You do not have a right to forcefully prevent or stop an adult from killing themselves).
Then there's paying attention to the whys, and as important, your own limitations: You don't know how they truly feel or how much pain they are in, you can empathize and sympathize but its inherently outside of your qualia - it's in theirs - and chances are if you were their friend you don't know how to actually help them heal in a way they'd agree with or that would have being under way already - and even if you and possibly other people would be hurt by their death, they don't owe you to keep suffering and stay alive for the sake of you feeling peppy. If you'd truly cared about them, would you even want them too?

[Gravdigr]

Suicide is the single most selfish act a person can commit. Period.

[fargon]

^WHS^

[it]

I don't know, I am currently frying eggrolls, entirely for myself, in an apartment I am renting for my self-serving egoistical purposes paid with a job I have for the sole purpose of making myself moneyz for my own purposes... Feels rather egoistical.

Look, a couple of months ago my uncle died from parkinson. It was a slow and painful death, there was no dignity, towards the end he didn't even have the benefit of being able to experience much of his identity or relationships - his own children, grandchildren and wife were foreign for him, they might have been there but at that moment his life in his mind's eye had no loved ones. He is a religious man, so thoughts of suicide never really really came up intiialyl and later he was all too lost most of the time, except for in a few lucid moments towards the end, but in them he begged to end it. And he was dismissed. His wife begged him not to talk like that, his children - all grown men - told him he is talking nonsense... And a few months later he died with no control of his bowls or idea of his loved ones and sometimes loosing grasp of speech and who he was. While I understand where they were coming from, they were still in practice demanding that he'd stay alive and suffer little bit longer so they can procrastinate their suffering. Frankly, I don't think his was the most egoistical side of that argument.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Gravdigr

Suicide is the single most selfish act a person can commit. Period.

A rather broad brush there, Grav.

Consider traceur's post ^^^

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by traceur

... We... Are not going to get along very well.

To answer what you are trying to rationalize: ...

Your loss

and

I wasn't asking;

because,

You like to hear yourself talk too much.

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

A rather broad brush there, Grav.

Well, it is a slippery slope...

[footfootfoot]

[Big Sarge]

I say it is a personal decision. No one should try to make you feel guilty if you decide your quality of life is no longer worth it.

[limey]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

I say it is a personal decision. No one should try to make you feel guilty if you decide your quality of life is no longer worth it.

And if your daughter was thinking of making such a decision?


Sent by thought transference

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by limey

And if your daughter was thinking of making such a decision?


Sent by thought transference

It's my job as a parent to give her a guilt trip