Religion vs Addiction - Page 2

squirell nutkin · 06-30-2010, 03:35 PM

OK, I will peruse the library this evening. Re: sharing. It's best if I answer specific questions, which I'll do only from my experience, not from anything I've read.

Griff · 06-30-2010, 03:44 PM

Why did you choose Zen over another school? (if that is the right way to ask that)

squirell nutkin · 06-30-2010, 04:25 PM

I had taken a few comparative religion classes in HS and College, and Zen seemed to resonate with me more. Perhaps it was the austerity of the practice as expressed by the Japanese. It wasn't until much later in my life that I met Zen Buddhists who practiced with Chinese and Vietnamese teachers. Their expression of Zen is much different. Culturally, Zen tends to take the shape of the container it's in.

I was also very interested in Japan and all things Japanese throughout my teens and twenties. Erroneously, I equated Zen with Japan.

Tibetan Buddhism always seemed out of reach to me, it seemed like a practice for Tibetans, there is a ton of ritual and mystery and ornamentation. Maybe coming from Catholicism that might have put me off, subconsciously.

Again, I was much more familiar with the Zen aesthetic in art, martial arts, tea ceremony, pottery, etc so it wasn't so completely bewildering. At first.

There are lots of other schools of Buddhism and many schools within Zen and Tibetan.
It's not unlike that there are many branches of Christianity.

BigV · 06-30-2010, 05:10 PM

Thank you.

I can't wait for you to lose the last sentence in your sig.

squirell nutkin · 06-30-2010, 05:27 PM

It's from the humor thread.

JBKlyde · 06-30-2010, 07:36 PM

The delema I'm in as far as religion goes is how to I go from "worldly" to "spiritual"... I want to be a spiritual person but the hurdle I have yet to overcome is how do I get spiritual.. I find myself in "Brain Zapped" situations where I cannot control my actions I want to be a disciplined person it's just that I'm lazy minded and often times I just let go with the laziness.

squirell nutkin · 06-30-2010, 08:37 PM

Reading list:
Two good starter books are Taking the Path of Zen by Robert Aitken
and The Eight Gates of Zen by John Daido Loori.

Both are highly accessible, written by westerners.
I'd stay away from some of the more philosophical stuff as it will create too much confusion, especially Alan Watts who wasn't a practitioner and gets a lot of stuff wrong.

Many Zen books make more sense after you've practiced. Popular culture has put the word on everyone's lips with lots of misinformation.

HungLikeJesus · 06-30-2010, 11:51 PM

And don't forget Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and...le_Maintenance

xoxoxoBruce · 07-01-2010, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBKlyde

The delema I'm in as far as religion goes is how to I go from "worldly" to "spiritual"... I want to be a spiritual person but the hurdle I have yet to overcome is how do I get spiritual.. I find myself in "Brain Zapped" situations where I cannot control my actions I want to be a disciplined person it's just that I'm lazy minded and often times I just let go with the laziness.

The only people I've met that were spiritual, had lost touch with reality.

Griff · 07-01-2010, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirell nutkin

Reading list:
Two good starter books are Taking the Path of Zen by Robert Aitken
and The Eight Gates of Zen by John Daido Loori.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus

And don't forget Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and...le_Maintenance

Thank you fellas, I appreciate the brain food.

Spexxvet · 07-01-2010, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griff

Thank you fellas, I appreciate the brain food.

Zen and Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is not really about Zen, IMHO.

Spexxvet · 07-01-2010, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirell nutkin

Reading list:
Two good starter books are Taking the Path of Zen by Robert Aitken
and The Eight Gates of Zen by John Daido Loori.

Both are highly accessible, written by westerners.
I'd stay away from some of the more philosophical stuff as it will create too much confusion, especially Alan Watts who wasn't a practitioner and gets a lot of stuff wrong.

Many Zen books make more sense after you've practiced. Popular culture has put the word on everyone's lips with lots of misinformation.

I've read some Watts. I think I'll try the Aitken. Thanks.

Stormieweather · 07-01-2010, 10:59 AM

Religion can be as addicting as anything else. As someone with an addictive personality, I have to be self-aware enough to recognize when something has gone from an 'interest' to an 'addiction'. And strong enough to eliminate the addictive behavior.

I dislike 12step programs because, in my opinion, they remove personal responsibility for recovery from the addict. Ie: it's in God's/your higher power's hands. It forces you to admit that you are powerless and any and all credit for your successes in staying sober belong to God. God helped me, I'm sure, but I am the one that put down the beer for good. I am the one that threw out the cigarettes after 34 years. I am the one that put my gaming on a strict schedule. I DO have enough self-control to manage these things and I've proved it time and time again. Knowing that I can do these things is hugely important in maintaining that self-control and confidence in myself. I want nothing to do with negative self-talk that revolves around...I can't do it...someone has to help me...I'm a failure without being propped up...I'm effed up and always will be...

Nope. Not true. /rant off

For Griff, here is a neat site with translations of many ancient writings:
Sacred Texts

squirell nutkin · 07-01-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I've read some Watts. I think I'll try the Aitken. Thanks.

I'm curious to hear what you think of Aitken. The main criticism of Watts is that he was an observer and thinker about the ideas of Zen, many of which he didn't understand or over-intellectualized. One of the key things about Zen is "Don't take my word for it, find out for yourself." i.e. personal verification. Watts is like a guy who studied all the great woodworkers, read all the tool catalogs, knew the names of all the trees., but had never picked up a tool or been in the woods.
A classic example of "the map is not the territory."

Still, his books did help spread familiarity with Zen in the west.

HungLikeJesus · 07-01-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirell nutkin

...
A classic example of "the map is not the territory."

...

Ah, I like that movie.

06-30-2010, 03:35 PM	#16
squirell nutkin has a second hand user title Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: in a Nut House Posts: 2,017	OK, I will peruse the library this evening. Re: sharing. It's best if I answer specific questions, which I'll do only from my experience, not from anything I've read. __________________ And now I'm finished posting.

06-30-2010, 03:44 PM	#17
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Why did you choose Zen over another school? (if that is the right way to ask that) __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

06-30-2010, 04:25 PM	#18
squirell nutkin has a second hand user title Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: in a Nut House Posts: 2,017	I had taken a few comparative religion classes in HS and College, and Zen seemed to resonate with me more. Perhaps it was the austerity of the practice as expressed by the Japanese. It wasn't until much later in my life that I met Zen Buddhists who practiced with Chinese and Vietnamese teachers. Their expression of Zen is much different. Culturally, Zen tends to take the shape of the container it's in. I was also very interested in Japan and all things Japanese throughout my teens and twenties. Erroneously, I equated Zen with Japan. Tibetan Buddhism always seemed out of reach to me, it seemed like a practice for Tibetans, there is a ton of ritual and mystery and ornamentation. Maybe coming from Catholicism that might have put me off, subconsciously. Again, I was much more familiar with the Zen aesthetic in art, martial arts, tea ceremony, pottery, etc so it wasn't so completely bewildering. At first. There are lots of other schools of Buddhism and many schools within Zen and Tibetan. It's not unlike that there are many branches of Christianity. __________________ And now I'm finished posting.

06-30-2010, 05:10 PM	#19
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	Thank you. I can't wait for you to lose the last sentence in your sig. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

06-30-2010, 05:27 PM	#20
squirell nutkin has a second hand user title Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: in a Nut House Posts: 2,017	It's from the humor thread. __________________ And now I'm finished posting.

06-30-2010, 07:36 PM	#21
JBKlyde Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Encrypted Into an AmpitheaterWall Posts: 1,722	The delema I'm in as far as religion goes is how to I go from "worldly" to "spiritual"... I want to be a spiritual person but the hurdle I have yet to overcome is how do I get spiritual.. I find myself in "Brain Zapped" situations where I cannot control my actions I want to be a disciplined person it's just that I'm lazy minded and often times I just let go with the laziness.

06-30-2010, 08:37 PM	#22
squirell nutkin has a second hand user title Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: in a Nut House Posts: 2,017	Reading list: Two good starter books are Taking the Path of Zen by Robert Aitken and The Eight Gates of Zen by John Daido Loori. Both are highly accessible, written by westerners. I'd stay away from some of the more philosophical stuff as it will create too much confusion, especially Alan Watts who wasn't a practitioner and gets a lot of stuff wrong. Many Zen books make more sense after you've practiced. Popular culture has put the word on everyone's lips with lots of misinformation. __________________ And now I'm finished posting.

06-30-2010, 11:51 PM	#23
HungLikeJesus Only looks like a disaster tourist Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: above 7,000 feet Posts: 7,208	And don't forget Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and...le_Maintenance __________________ Keep Your Bodies Off My Lawn SteveDallas's Random Thread Picker.

07-01-2010, 10:59 AM	#28
Stormieweather Wearing her bitch boots Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Floriduh Posts: 1,181	Religion can be as addicting as anything else. As someone with an addictive personality, I have to be self-aware enough to recognize when something has gone from an 'interest' to an 'addiction'. And strong enough to eliminate the addictive behavior. I dislike 12step programs because, in my opinion, they remove personal responsibility for recovery from the addict. Ie: it's in God's/your higher power's hands. It forces you to admit that you are powerless and any and all credit for your successes in staying sober belong to God. God helped me, I'm sure, but I am the one that put down the beer for good. I am the one that threw out the cigarettes after 34 years. I am the one that put my gaming on a strict schedule. I DO have enough self-control to manage these things and I've proved it time and time again. Knowing that I can do these things is hugely important in maintaining that self-control and confidence in myself. I want nothing to do with negative self-talk that revolves around...I can't do it...someone has to help me...I'm a failure without being propped up...I'm effed up and always will be... Nope. Not true. /rant off For Griff, here is a neat site with translations of many ancient writings: Sacred Texts __________________ "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

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