Depressing/ Suicide

[xoxoxoBruce]

“Suffering is one very long moment. We cannot divide it by seasons. […] For us there is only one season, the season of sorrow. […] Where there is sorrow there is holy ground. Some day people will realize what that means. They will know nothing of life till they do.”

Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, 1895

[it]

Originally Posted by limey

And if your daughter was thinking of making such a decision?


Sent by thought transference

Then you go oh noes that's unthinkable and she learns the space with which she can communicate her thoughts isn't by you. A more problematic question is: Could she be right? What if she is suffering so much that her quality of life really isn't worth while living and she truly has no reasonable cause for hope to improve it to a point where it would be? If you loved someone, and they where really in that state of suffering, would you want them too continue living just for you?

IMO The key word which makes this such a difficult line is what counts as "reasonable"....

To the example I gave before - sure, it's possible they would have invented the cure for parkinsons right on time and my uncle would have been in the first test batch - or... Aliens.. But it's not likely - it's not a reasonable cause for hope.
On the opposite extreme, If his daughter is 16yo and just had her heart broken for the first time, the chances she'll recover are pretty close to 100%, if she doesn't it's more likely to be because an asteroid has hit earth then because of the heartbreak itself.
Those examples are pretty black and white, but there' a whole spectrum in between, and the closer it is to the middle the harder it would be to make sense of it.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by traceur

If you loved someone, and they where really in that state of suffering, would you want them too continue living just for you?

Christ, I see this with dog and cat owners all the freaking time. The fucking animal is miserable but they don't want to kill it because they will feel sad when it's dead, even though the grass hasn't grown over it's grave before they get a new one.

If they can't let go of a pet, they sure as shit aren't giving a pass to their family.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

...
If they can't let go of a pet, they sure as shit aren't giving a pass to their family.

This is where a good medical staff and counsellors earn their keep,
... helping family members let go and giving the dying permission.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yes, the "Death Panels" was a provision for doctors to spend time with elderly and terminally ill patients, explaining the possible end of life options. From do not resituate, to refusing life extending drugs/procedures, while they still are of sound mind. It's important because relatives will always choose save Uncle Willy, no matter how much Willy is suffering. Looking at the choices doctors choose for themselves, shows yes to pain killers and no to most everything else.

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

...do not resituate...

You mean they should sit/lay in the same position all the time??? They can't move? Not even a little?

[xoxoxoBruce]

That's right, leave 'em in the gutter with the pigs and night soil.

[Sundae]

Mum had "the conversation" with Grandad when he was still well enough to make the decision.
He was a typical, stoic old Cockney of his generation. Didn't want to be a bother to anyone. Don't hook me up to any of those pipes.

In the end he slipped off peacefully in the nursing home and Mum, Dad, Laura and I were there - Stevo was on his way back from London. The home called to say he was near the end - we were all expecting it. No bother to anyone, it was between teatime and Coronation Street.

I am such a selfish witch that losing Diz hit me harder than losing Grandad.
But I do miss him. Proper old school, was Grandad.

[it]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Yes, the "Death Panels" was a provision for doctors to spend time with elderly and terminally ill patients, explaining the possible end of life options. From do not resituate, to refusing life extending drugs/procedures, while they still are of sound mind. It's important because relatives will always choose save Uncle Willy, no matter how much Willy is suffering. Looking at the choices doctors choose for themselves, shows yes to pain killers and no to most everything else.

I don't know how I missed this, but somehow - until I noticed you calling these "death panels" - It never clicked in my mind that this was what the republicans were complaining about with the whole US public health policy thing a few years back.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Sundae

I am such a selfish witch that losing Diz hit me harder than losing Grandad.
.

It's not selfishness. Diz was embedded in your day-to-day existence at a much more fundamental level.

It hit me much harder when I lost Pilau than when I lost my Dad. Just because - every second of the day was a reminder that I no longer had Pilau - whereas missing Dad came in waves. Dad was Dad - but Pilau was my everything.

[xoxoxoBruce]

from...

Switzerland tolerates assisted suicide since 1942 and there are very interesting numbers.
A) From 1995 to 2009, assisted suicide cases have grown but the total number of suicides keeps constant.
B) Assisted suicide in 2009 accounted for approx 30% of all suicides.
C) Women chose assisted suicide more than men, but men use firearms more than women to commit suicide.
D) Peak assisted suicide is between 75 and 84 years old. It seems that people that cross the 80+ years old line are not affected by painful or exhausting diseases thus they choose to life until it ends naturally
E) Peak suicide is between 45-54 years old, midlife crisis is real,
F) Overall suicide rates for women kept constant even if assisted suicide rates increase.
G) Overall suicide rates for men are going down and assisted suicide goes up.

[Lamplighter]

Oregon sometimes gets national publicity over it's "Death With Dignity Act"

But after it's passage, the whole issue has settled down.
There are even comments among the public health professionals
that the numbers may be leveling off after an initial rise.

Of course, some people will always have trouble with the concept,
but those who come to have personal knowledge of life situations
see the benefits to the person and their family.

This graph shows the difference between Rx's and actual deaths is increasing
... thereby giving the individual choice and control over their own life.

[Happy Monkey]

Saying goodbye

So yes, she essentially committed suicide. And you know what I don’t ever want to hear someone say again? “Oh, that’s the coward’s way out. She took the easy way out. Suicide is just selfishness.” If you believe that, fuck off. Selfish would have been demanding that she prolong her suffering because we didn’t want to lose her. There was nothing easy about the decision she made and there certainly wasn’t anything selfish or cowardly about it. She made the perfectly rational choice to end her pain and suffering. And we made the humane and loving choice to support her in doing so.

[BigV]

I like patheos. I liked that article, though it was very sad.

Thanks Happy Monkey.

[orthodoc]

Just had this (these) conversation(s) with my 81 year old father, who lives with us and who is having surgery tomorrow. We've talked before and I know his general thoughts and wishes, but he hadn't previously put his wishes in writing. There are plenty of articles about doctors choosing to die 'differently' than their patients, i.e. without much fuss or medical intervention, at home. I suspect that's what many people would prefer. The tricky part lies in being able to say fairly accurately when further treatment/intervention really won't make any difference. If medical staff could clearly communicate that, and people felt enough trust to believe it, would the last few weeks/days of life go better for more people? I think and hope so.

Calling conversations about compassionate and dignified care at the end of life 'Death Panels' in order to create fear and visions of involuntary euthanasia was a truly despicable political lie. Unworthy of any party.